Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 52/early version
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RfC: Did recent currency image deletions go beyond the proper aims and objectives of the NFC image policy?
This is an RfC to discuss whether recent image removals were appropriate at New Zealand dollar (diff) and Banknotes of the Indonesian rupiah (diff), as discussed immediately above, and in principle many further currency articles. Similar comprehensive treatments of current banknotes have been in place since before the first days of NFC policy without any apparent particular concern; it is only within about the last ten days that they have become a target for image removal. This RfC is convened in the belief that the proper way for the community to reconsider whether such content is appropriate or not is through discussion, rather than by a sustained editing push by a small number of committed editors to establish a fait accompli.
I have included "proper aims and objectives of the NFC image policy" because it seems to me that there are different views of what NFC policy is for, and that these should also be reviewed. On the one hand there seems to be a view amongst some that NFC is a charter to let them bulldoze away as much content as they can get away with at any particular moment. Proponents of this view emphasise the word "minimal" and appear to see all and any NFC content as fundamentally conflicting with our m:mission; they would like to see much less NFC of any kind on the project. On the other hand, a contending view holds that appropriate use of NFC actually supports our m:mission by making Wikipedia a more comprehensive, more useful resource, to which readers will be more likely to contribute the new content that our mission places us here to develop. On this second view, NFC policy is a carefully constructed balance to allow content we can legally use that adds value to our readers, while drawing a carefully conservative line to exclude content that really might materially damage the provision or reusability of our content, i.e. excluding anything for which it is not absolutely clear we're on the right side of fair use law; anything which might materially damage the redistributivity of our content (in practice the ability of big automated sites in the U.S. to harvest and re-use our content verbatim); and finally, anything which might "crowd out" somebody coming forward with a more free image. On this second view, NFC policy was carefully crafted to reflect these key concerns, so there is no benefit in a crusade against non-free content beyond that. Both sides claim that the Foundation licensing resolution reflects their point of view. 12:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
Viewpoint 1: No purpose is served by removing content we can legally use under educational-material-only or nonmodified-use-only licensing, unless free alternatives are or might be available
Support (Viewpoint 1)
- (This was the situation with the New Zealand images, made available under this license). Our use on Wikipedia was legally compliant with that license; so would be reuse of our page by any downstream re-distributor. So there is no legal threat to us here, and no threat to the spread of our content. It is reasonable to object to, say, an image of a celebrity issued under such terms (and we do), because use here would tend to "crowd out" the likelihood of a random Wikipedian taking an alternative image that was completely strings-free. But when, as here, there is no likelihood of a completely free image, and we and others can use the image we're offered perfectly legally, what are we supposed to be achieving by not using the image? This is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater, destroying the village in order to save it. Jheald (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Freedom warriors want ideological purity (absolute free culture, in the Stallman sense) over the best encyclopedia possible. We should stop pretending this is about the law. It isn't. It's about a cultural norm which they seek to impose/maintain. Obviously, I think this position is not worth supporting. Mostlyharmless (talk) 05:36, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Endorse. We should use every legal tool available to improve the quality of the encyclopedia. The foundation every now and again asks the average Wikipedia reader to take a survey on their experience. It would be interesting to compare how many of them would like Wikipedia to include more pictures, versus how many would like Wikipedia to more purely adhere to the ideology of the free software movement. I'd eat my hat if it's even close. TotientDragooned (talk) 22:59, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Totient and Mostly, I should emphasise that the proposal here is very limited. It relates only to material that (i) is not going to be replaceable by any free image; and (ii) is licensed by its owner in such a way that would license a commercial reuser, as well as ourselves, to use it in the context of one of our articles presented verbatim. This isn't an assault on the basic thinking behind the WP:NFC criteria, which I think are well-judged (and, rightly, are more restrictive than "everything legally available"). Rather, it's whether there is any benefit in restricting images of this particular type: images for which the licenses do come with some restrictions, but which would be re-usable by any re-user of our article, and which are not taking the place of any images which could be more free. Jheald (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support your underlying point, but you self-destructed it by poor phrasing. Suggest you withdraw it. North8000 (talk) 11:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose (Viewpoint 1)
- Note that the foundation has stated that while fair use allows the use of (copyrighted) non-free images, the use of that should still be minimized, as the use of non-free image is, obviously, not helping in building a free encyclopedia. That goes for all non-free images. Removing that content, and maybe making a (small) selection for re-inclusion, therefore helps in the purpose of building an encyclopedia where the use of non-free images is minimised. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, a 'Wikipedia policy with legal considerations'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- The legal consideration is that these images are licensed, and we would be complying with the license. The practical consideration is not to crowd out more freely-licensed images.
- But when there are no more freely-licensed images, nor are they createable, then what is the value of the restriction? What, and who, does it then serve? Jheald (talk) 12:43, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, a 'Wikipedia policy with legal considerations'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Our mission as a free-content encyclopedia makes it necessary to sometimes (imnsho always) emphasize "free" over "encyclopedia". See WP:VEGAN. —Кузьма討論 12:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose What we can "legally" use is and never has been the point. If the criteria was what is allowed under fair use law, there would be zero objection to the use of as many currency images as anyone would wish to have. An educational resource such as this has very easily defendable grounds with respect to fair use law. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:07, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note that Viewpoint 1 isn't about fair use law. We wouldn't be using the images under fair use law, we would be using them under licence from the New Zealand government. The question is whether there is any point in not using them on the grounds that the licence isn't as free as it could be, if there is no prospect of a free alternative. What would that denial be serving? Jheald (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- the Foundation only recognizes two classes of licenses: one that is equivalent to the CC-BY (free content), and if not, it's nonfree, regardless of how much of "can be allowed for educational purposes" the license evokes. If it can't be redistributed without strings attached, it's non-free and treated within US Fair Use law. --MASEM (t) 13:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- A fair point. But did the Foundation ever consider licensed (albeit restricted) images that were not replaceable? Was their omission intentional, or just an oversight? What is the good that is served by our not using them? Jheald (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- the Foundation only recognizes two classes of licenses: one that is equivalent to the CC-BY (free content), and if not, it's nonfree, regardless of how much of "can be allowed for educational purposes" the license evokes. If it can't be redistributed without strings attached, it's non-free and treated within US Fair Use law. --MASEM (t) 13:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note that Viewpoint 1 isn't about fair use law. We wouldn't be using the images under fair use law, we would be using them under licence from the New Zealand government. The question is whether there is any point in not using them on the grounds that the licence isn't as free as it could be, if there is no prospect of a free alternative. What would that denial be serving? Jheald (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The NFCC are deliberately stricter than law. The policy is not here to push the limit of what we can legally use, it is here to minimise the non-free content we use. Effectively, we have a situation whereby content is either free, or non-free; attempts to create some kind of third "in the middle" have been shot down in the past, and will serve only to muddy the waters. J Milburn (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. There's great benefit in not restricting ourselves to be a free as in beer encyclopedia.--Damiens.rf 14:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- So what is that benefit, in relation to images where these conditions are true? Jheald (talk) 00:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is not a comment on the specific deletion case that triggered this RfC, but as a general statement of policy, this wording would essentially mean getting rid of NFCC#8 (contextualy significance) and #3 (minimality) completely. This runs directly counter to foundation policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, the question does indeed ask what is the point of NFCC #8 and NFCC #3 -- though only for a very particular category of images: those where our and our reusers' use falls within a legal (albeit restrictive) license, so (unlike most NFC) there is at least no legal rationale for NFCC #8 and #3; and also non-replaceable, so they pass NFCC #1, and there is no "crowding out" rationale for not using them. For images in this very particular condition, how is it that we are helping people by restricting their use? Jheald (talk) 00:09, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- I understand your point, but the phrasing is all wrong. — BQZip01 — talk 23:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Our Five Pillars put out quite simply that we are a free content work, not a work that happens to be free content. Whether we *can* use something doesnt make it compatible with that goal. -- ۩ Mask 05:27, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, our restrictions on nonfree content are deliberately far stricter than "Is it legal?" Rather, they are intended to prevent splattering of nonfree media all over a free content project. Nonfree media use is to be kept to an absolute minimum, and that means to far less than the law would allow. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:13, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose As a free work, wikipedia is supposed to minimize in purpose the usage of non-free images. The foundation has explicitly stated this, in the link provided in the first oppose. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:20, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose While any firm assurance that our use of certain images is legal is certainly a Good Thing, we should not limit ourselves to doing only what is minimally required by the law. Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia, which means we should be trying to use the best free (as in speech) content and the best encyclopedic content that we can - neither at the expense of the other. VernoWhitney (talk) 18:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment (Viewpoint 1)
- A key point is: do we make ourselves any less free by including non-free content? According to the Foundation, the answer is not. Wikipedia is to be considered an "aggregated work" under the GFDL -- that is, the presence of additional non-free content in no way takes away from the freedom to separate and re-use the free content. And in this case, by the nature of the NZ license, there is explicitly no problem with using the whole page, images and all. Jheald (talk) 12:26, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is a good question, though I believe that m:Mission shows that the Foundation does want minimal use of non-free content. Whether we disagree that the fair-use of non-free content does make the whole of the encyclopedia less free is not really the point. If the Foundation would not care about the use of non-free media (as long as it has a fair-use rationale), then we could use it as much and wherever we want. Fact is, we already try to minimize the use of such images, question is whether showing all images on a list-like article, or just a few representative ones, does make the article less valuable. I don't believe so. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- No. We couldn't "use it as much and wherever we want". There are good practical reasons for limiting NFC -- limiting legal exposure, maximising re-usability, incentivising the upload of fully free images. Those are the reasons that, historically, shaped the creation and drafting of the NFC policy; and led to the sensible balances in it, which the Foundation thought so much of that they wanted it rolled out project-wide. But in a case like this, when none of those practical reasons for restrictions apply, all that is left is this interpretation of "mission" -- an interpretation which seems to me by no means necessary, compelling, or even plausible. The point of the policy is to prevent NFC that might harm the distribution of our free content, so preserving our mission. But our m:mission isn't to be a free-content-only encyclopedia -- if it was truly against our mission, we wouldn't have any NFC at all. Jheald (talk) 13:06, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Remember, we are not saying that no non-free images of currency can ever be used, we are staying that there is a practical application to an encyclopedia (a tertiary source, not the end-all-be-all reference guide for everything) to reduce multiple images of currency from the same country/series with only a couple images and text. Short of the exact visual representation of the currency, this serves the same educational purpose and gains the benefit of closing in on the ultimate goal of the Foundation. Our mission is to be free content, but that's the goal, not the mandated state it must always be in. --MASEM (t) 13:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strictly speaking, our mission is to "collect and develop" free content. That is different from "to be" free content, especially when the Foundation has ruled (since 2004) that free content is still free content even when distributed with additional severable non-free content. Jheald (talk) 22:59, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- Remember, we are not saying that no non-free images of currency can ever be used, we are staying that there is a practical application to an encyclopedia (a tertiary source, not the end-all-be-all reference guide for everything) to reduce multiple images of currency from the same country/series with only a couple images and text. Short of the exact visual representation of the currency, this serves the same educational purpose and gains the benefit of closing in on the ultimate goal of the Foundation. Our mission is to be free content, but that's the goal, not the mandated state it must always be in. --MASEM (t) 13:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- No. We couldn't "use it as much and wherever we want". There are good practical reasons for limiting NFC -- limiting legal exposure, maximising re-usability, incentivising the upload of fully free images. Those are the reasons that, historically, shaped the creation and drafting of the NFC policy; and led to the sensible balances in it, which the Foundation thought so much of that they wanted it rolled out project-wide. But in a case like this, when none of those practical reasons for restrictions apply, all that is left is this interpretation of "mission" -- an interpretation which seems to me by no means necessary, compelling, or even plausible. The point of the policy is to prevent NFC that might harm the distribution of our free content, so preserving our mission. But our m:mission isn't to be a free-content-only encyclopedia -- if it was truly against our mission, we wouldn't have any NFC at all. Jheald (talk) 13:06, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- As long as we allow one non-free use , we've "broken" the mission (WP:VEGAN). But, as DB mentions, the goal is still to minimize non-free use to limited exceptions. Given the groupthink nature of WP, when we make exceptions for certain classes of articles to have a large number of NFC media pieces, other people will complain or take it as explicit allowance for their favorite class of articles to also have a large number of images, and this propagates into an expansion of NFC use. (this had to happen with those that wanted all historical logos of a TV station without additional comment, and art articles that summarize modern periods or movements, and of course discograhpies and episode lists from before). It is a balance between how much nonfree use we do allow and achieving an educational goal, and there have been solutions offered that should how 1-2 images can be used to replace numerous ones while still doing the intended job of showing what the currency for a country looks like, so clearly showing every possible currency does not consider that balance. --MASEM (t) 12:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is a good question, though I believe that m:Mission shows that the Foundation does want minimal use of non-free content. Whether we disagree that the fair-use of non-free content does make the whole of the encyclopedia less free is not really the point. If the Foundation would not care about the use of non-free media (as long as it has a fair-use rationale), then we could use it as much and wherever we want. Fact is, we already try to minimize the use of such images, question is whether showing all images on a list-like article, or just a few representative ones, does make the article less valuable. I don't believe so. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:34, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Not worth debating - they're either free or non-free - anything else is an unecessary distraction from the real issue of how the justifiable use of non-free imagery is being prevented. MickMacNee (talk) 13:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- So your goal is not to build a free encyclopedia, contrary to the rules of the Foundation? --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- My goal is ensure the Foundation's allowance of justifiable fair use within the EDP is respected. And in that regime, an image is free or non-free, and thus it can either be uploaded, or has to be justified. That's a basic fact. And you're talking to someone who has taken and uploaded over 2,000 images on Commons for over 3 years now, and uploaded countless more from Flickr etc. I don't even assert my attribution rights on my own work, all of my creations are {PD-User}. So please, you can have this one baseless attack on me and what you think my goals are, but no more. MickMacNee (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- The foundation has allowed a minimal use of non-free media, having a massive number of non-free media on one page is hence not the goal of the Foundation's allowance of justifiable fair use (and still it is in violation of our mission and core policies). --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your assertion of this as fact is what this Rfc is here to address. My idea of justifiable minimal fair use is not in any way a violation of the mission or any core policy. MickMacNee (talk) 15:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The point of this RFC is to address what exactly "massive" is in this context instead of leaving it as a completely nebulous context. — BQZip01 — talk 21:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your assertion of this as fact is what this Rfc is here to address. My idea of justifiable minimal fair use is not in any way a violation of the mission or any core policy. MickMacNee (talk) 15:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- So your goal is not to build a free encyclopedia, contrary to the rules of the Foundation? --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Comment So, four days on, and a pile-on of !votes in the no column. Which is fair enough. But I'm a bit disappointed that, at least to my mind, the responses haven't gone further to engage with the question more. Saying that this would complicate NFC policy may be true, but seems to me at most only a secondary-level reason; if we collectively wanted to, it wouldn't necessarily be a show stopper. Similarly, saying the Foundation resolution doesn't allow for such a thing also seems a secondary-level thing; if the collective will was there, we could ask the Foundation to review whether it had made an oversight -- which was in part why the question was couched in the more abstract level of "is there a point to this rule in this particular type of circumstance", rather than as any more direct rule changing proposal. As for the other responses, it seems to me they don't really go any further than saying that non-free content is non-free content, without, it seems to me, really getting to the question of what good restricting images for which these conditions apply is doing; or who in the world exactly is helped by our not making such images available to them?
To Mick MacNee, considering this a trivial distraction, I would note that it is not only a clutch of NZ banknote images that fall into this category; there is also a considerable amount of UK Crown Copyright material that has been released under such licenses. And it seems to me, one can understand why there may be strong concerns that legal or archive material not be distorted or misrepresented. Of course, the alternative CC-BY licenses still explicitly allow such integrity issues to be defended through the assertion of moral rights. (And on the other side of the coin, if a work is released under an "unmodified-use-only" license, that does not prevent bona-fide transformative use under many legal codes including the USA). But moral rights actions are a lot harder to effectively pursue than copyright actions (except perhaps in France), so one can perhaps understand why countries like the UK and NZ prefer to hang on to the copright option for images where integrity is a concern.
Given that this is the policy that governments like the UK and NZ have come to for their public copyright releases, who is served by us not presenting such images when they are available (even if it is just illustrating the formal front page of an Act of Parliament on a page discussing that Act?) Yes, the licenses are restrictive, they're not fully free. Of couse one can stress that point. And if alternative free images could be available, then of course it makes every sense not to crowd them out. But for images when, by the very nature of the thing, free alternate images are not available, why is somebody better off not seeing an image at all, rather than seeing an image with restricted freedoms? What is the good that is achieved by that denial? Who exactly is it that is helped by it? Jheald (talk) 23:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- You're omitting the benefit to Wikipedia that it gets by reducing the number of non-free images and closely approaching the free content mission. Of course, as implied by the resolution ,there is a balance that can be set by the various wikis for inclusion of non-free media, but they have insisted this is kept to a minimum and with a careful eye for free replacements whenever possible.
- Everyone in this discussion acknowledges that using zero images, while the ideal, is likely not going to fly as there is significant educational value in showing one example currency picture compared to having no pictures so the allowance of one non-free is an acceptable image per the resolution. But the issue becomes of how much educational value each successive image has relative to the "harm" the additional non-free adds to Wikipedia. There may be exceptions but most currency systems I'm aware of use a consistent layout and look to each bill; thus, adding in an image of a second bill does not add any more educational value as simply stating what is on that bill in text. In otherwords, after one image, we've past the point of diminishing returns on educational value for each additional image, and thus it is impractical to consider using them all. This is based on the assumption that all that can be said about the bill is who is on it and its denomination without any secondary sourcing beyond that. I'm sure there are unique cases where there are specific bills, not fully notable for their own article, but have enough commentary that would merit another image through this same logic. --MASEM (t) 00:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but who would be being harmed by us showing such images? And how? This is what nobody is presenting. (And note that this is about the broader category of licensed images without replacements, not just banknotes). Jheald (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- The who is the Foundation. They are trying to make a free-content redistributable encyclopedia and non-free images, while necessary, harm that mission. Yes, it seems to be at odds when we readily allow non-frees throughout the work (see WP:VEGAN) but it is still a goal to strive towards and take all steps to help the Foundation get there. --MASEM (t) 00:27, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, the fundamental point Angr makes in WP:VEGAN is (at least for him, considering things on an ideological plane) it's all-or-nothing: if you're not going to be free-content-only then fiddling around with a little less NFC here or a little more NFC there is irrelevant.
- Let's also note that images in the particular group identified in Viewpoint 1 don't in any way affect the redistributability of the encyclopedia or the article, so the word "redistributable" in your post above is a bit of a red herring.
- But are you really saying that the point of removing these images is not for the good of anybody at all, just for the sake of it?
- I find that very dubious, even if I thought that the Foundation wanted to create a free-content-only en-wiki (which I don't, they've specifically denied it); or that that is what our mission sets out (which it isn't: our mission commits us to creating free content; it says nothing about what non-free content we can or cannot also deliver alongside it).
- So again I'd ask: what end-users do you think are helped by this stance, on this particular class of content? (including UK crown copyright material, not just NZ banknotes). Jheald (talk) 00:44, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- First of all, yes, the fact that non-free images in question have redistribution restrictions does affect WP. That's the point of free content is to put it into a form that anyone, academic, personal, commercial, etc. can use it. That can't happen with those images, and thus it harms the free content mission.
- But if you don't understand how VEGAN applies here, you have to understand the present mentality of OTHERSTUFFEXISTS that harms the free content mission. I would likely be one of the first in line to agree that showing all of the bill images would be the best possible solution. But - and this is important - this "show all possible examples" doesn't work for most other areas, such as character lists which I'm sure there are plenty of editors that would love to be able to do that. Or discographies. Or episode guides, and so on. Meeting the free content mission means that every aspect of the project has to be treated with the same restrictions and allowances and one field cannot be "special" without causing a whole host of trouble down the road simply due to editors' demands for parity. VEGAN alludes to "A little bit of meat" at a vegatarian dinner, and en.wiki's policy is presently "a little bit of non-free in the free content mission" and while we cannot get to free content, we can avoid this from becoming a full fledged red meat BBQ by asking editors to retain minimal use of non-free images when there are 1) external sources that have this information one link away and 2) we can show by example rather than full-bore iteration of each image. --MASEM (t) 01:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Viewpoint 2, below, is the question about the banknote images as a particular "field", to which your argument above appears to be directed. But this question -- question 1 -- is about what the value is of limiting content under "unmodified-use-only" licenses or licenses like the NZ banknotes, when that content is not crowding out any more free images. We could put the NZ banknote images onto the NZ banknote page, and still anyone could reproduce that page with those images for whatever reason -- academic, personal, commercial, etc. -- because the page as a whole would be presenting them in an educational context. Given that reproducibility, my question here is: what point does denying ourselves images in that class serve?
- For a second example, consider UK pictorial road-sign images. Under a standard UK government release, these are available with no strings for uses where they are not modified. We have a number of articles comparing road-signs of the world, often in tabular format. What is the good that is done by us refusing to include a column of what those signs look like in the UK? Jheald (talk) 02:22, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, if we want to focus on the case of images that are licensed until a pseudo-free license, that's an issue you need to take up with the Foundation. The m:mission is The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally., with the term "Free license" explained here [1] (from the licensing resolution). This requirement requires that the images can be built on - voiding those licenses that call for "no derivatives", meaning, that for the Foundation, they cannot treat these as free. Editors here at en.wiki cannot override that decision. So we're established that these are non-free images, we then must seek to reduce their usage per the rest of my argument. If you don't like that the Foundation will refuse to accept these images as anything less than non-free, you'll need to go there to talk to them to reduce that requirement. --MASEM (t) 02:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Foundation is not something apart from the community. It is consultative, elected by the community, to work for the community. Before raising an issue to the Foundation, it is almost always appropriate to do the preparatory work and discuss it in the community first -- hence this discussion here, to try to get input on whether restricting images that are (i) licensed, and (ii) not replaceable is actually serving anyone's benefit. I find it depressing that after two weeks now that this question has been open, still nobody has identified a single concrete benefit that is served by restricting images that are licensed under these licenses and not replaceable. Jheald (talk) 12:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- The primary benefit is that we are making a encyclopedia that better serves the Foundation's mission that can be redistributed under free licenses. And while the Foundation is partially based on community input, they have a mission that they have to maintain and hence why they passed the resolution a while back. Now, that doesn't that you can't change their minds, but that change has to come from them. How to influence them to make that change, I don't know. --MASEM (t) 12:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Before the Foundation takes any action, it likes to see what arguments the Community comes up with and puts forward. That's what I was asking for here. I find it rather sad that despite the pile-on above, still nobody has identified any way that anyone is substantitively helped by our not using images that both we and our downstream commercial reusers could use under license, and which are not replaceable by any more freely licenseable images. Jheald (talk) 10:04, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- The primary benefit is that we are making a encyclopedia that better serves the Foundation's mission that can be redistributed under free licenses. And while the Foundation is partially based on community input, they have a mission that they have to maintain and hence why they passed the resolution a while back. Now, that doesn't that you can't change their minds, but that change has to come from them. How to influence them to make that change, I don't know. --MASEM (t) 12:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Foundation is not something apart from the community. It is consultative, elected by the community, to work for the community. Before raising an issue to the Foundation, it is almost always appropriate to do the preparatory work and discuss it in the community first -- hence this discussion here, to try to get input on whether restricting images that are (i) licensed, and (ii) not replaceable is actually serving anyone's benefit. I find it depressing that after two weeks now that this question has been open, still nobody has identified a single concrete benefit that is served by restricting images that are licensed under these licenses and not replaceable. Jheald (talk) 12:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, if we want to focus on the case of images that are licensed until a pseudo-free license, that's an issue you need to take up with the Foundation. The m:mission is The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally., with the term "Free license" explained here [1] (from the licensing resolution). This requirement requires that the images can be built on - voiding those licenses that call for "no derivatives", meaning, that for the Foundation, they cannot treat these as free. Editors here at en.wiki cannot override that decision. So we're established that these are non-free images, we then must seek to reduce their usage per the rest of my argument. If you don't like that the Foundation will refuse to accept these images as anything less than non-free, you'll need to go there to talk to them to reduce that requirement. --MASEM (t) 02:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- The who is the Foundation. They are trying to make a free-content redistributable encyclopedia and non-free images, while necessary, harm that mission. Yes, it seems to be at odds when we readily allow non-frees throughout the work (see WP:VEGAN) but it is still a goal to strive towards and take all steps to help the Foundation get there. --MASEM (t) 00:27, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, but who would be being harmed by us showing such images? And how? This is what nobody is presenting. (And note that this is about the broader category of licensed images without replacements, not just banknotes). Jheald (talk) 00:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Weak oppose/Neutral This is another kinda-wrong answer to the original question... As the first answer to the question "Did recent currency image deletions go beyond the proper aims and objectives of the NFC image policy?" I would have expected a less convoluted first answer, more clearly leaning towards "yes" or "no" :) If you had simply phrased it "No purpose is served by removing content we can legally use under established fair use policies on Wikipedia which allow for currency images", you would have gotten more support; this approach assumes that the deletions were in line with policy, which they actually weren't. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Tepid Per Joy. I also do not believe that at this time the contibutors to this RfC represent a true cross-section of the views, but seems to be many of the "same names, different day" with respect to NFC purists. This may very well be because they are the best informed on this issue, but still does not address my underlying concerns regarding the support base. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 04:10, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Viewpoint 2: That showing actual images of the banknotes contributes sufficiently to reader education in an article specifically on the banknotes of that country, that at least the use of "one obverse image and one reverse image per currently circulating denomination" should be considered to meet the requirements acceptably of NFCC#8 and NFCC#3a
Support (Viewpoint 2)
- Even if (unlike New Zealand) there is not an explicit license regulating use of the images, it is virtually unimaginable that action would be taken against an honest article discussing the banknotes of a country, and it would certainly get nowhere under U.S. fair use law. That's why our existing WP:NFCI guideline takes a comparatively lenient stance on banknote images, allowing their use simply for the purpose of identification of the banknote, without requiring any commentary on the note or the image. Ultimately, the question of whether under NFCC#8 and NFCC#3a it is appropriate for us to show a complete set of the current banknotes is properly one for the community to decide, hence my putting it up for RfC here. For myself, I believe that it is appropriate. In my view, as expressed above, knowing what a country's current banknotes look like -- all of them -- is pretty fundamental if we're trying to provide comprehensive and encyclopedic coverage of that country. As to those who say we can just show one and describe the rest, I don't agree. Actually showing the bills gives the ability for the reader to much more readily and instinctively recognise the bills, using their visual memory, something I think is not negligible. It allows a reader, for instance, to readily determine whether a bill they may have is still current. It lets the reader see what the images are on the bills, and how they vary. The currency is a very significant part of the material culture of any country, and I really think we're falling down if -- just to please ourselves -- we don't show it. Given how limited the copyright taking is, given that so many bills are in circulation and we are not impinging at all on the primary purpose for which the image was created, I really don't see any good purpose served by our not showing what each country's particular currency looks like. Jheald (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- "just to please ourselves". Absolutely true. This is an ideological argument, no less than arguments about picturing the Prophet Muhammed. A set of values about freedom are being prioritized above a set of values relating to an encyclopedia. Let's not pretend necessity here - this is about the community's wishes. Mostlyharmless (talk) 05:44, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously. And if we are being serious about being an educational resource, it should include historical issues too (in the exact same way it's completely laughable that people argue that cleansing articles of all outdated logos is doing anything other than destroying a reader's ability to understand the topic). The people arguing that just using some is OK are displaying that awesome quality of knowing that all currencies of the world are as bland as the US currency, and as such, you don't need any mental abilities to imagine the '10' replaced by the '20', or Jackson replaced by whoever. And the encyclopoedic purpose of each image is after all, identification, not accompaniament of flowery text about stylistic influences etc. It's a better man than me that can tell someone else how good their imagination is, and whether or not their ability to an identify an image is impaired by not having the exact image present. As ever, the ideas that certain people have about how readers probably use these articles, are completely upside down, and more often than not argued from the pristine tower of foreknowledge of already knowing the images likenesses, or worse, from basic ideological opposition and unwillingess to accept the basic tenets of the Mission and the reason it does allow non-free images. This whole issue has frankly suffered for far too long from the untenable argument that 'minimal use' is measured in absolute numbers of images - it's completely wrong. An article with 1 image is already unfree. It isn't any less free with 3, 10 or even 100 more. What matters is what they are being used for. I welcome the day when people taking this line on minimal use clue themselves in, and realise just why nobody who can credibly claim to be an expert in fair use (i.e., not someone who proudly claims to have conducted thousands of removals on Wikipedia without being blocked), and not least the Foundation in whose name this is often argued, has ever backed their illogical assertions that, at least in the field of identification, '1 or 2 is OK', '3 to 5 is debatable', 'over 5 absolutely not'. Currencies is a perfect example of the wrongness of this approach to NFCC and minimal use. I've never heard something so ridiculous as the claim that the arguments and positions taken in the discography ruling can be transplanted unchanged into the field of currency, as if it's not even in doubt. On the behavioural issue too, people need to completely stop citing things like BURDEN, it's completely irrelevant. NFCC is often compared to BLP to justify this utter disruption. Well, I cannot imagine a single instance where, if just one editor gave an arguable case that a certain piece of text might just be constured as a violation and needs removing until a case can be made, he would not be supported in sufficient numbers & clue to not have to revert the number of times people are doing in this area, when they arrive with their personal POV as to what is and is not acceptable. Some of the 'prior discussion' links provided to support the idea there's consensus for these reverts have been nothing short of completely tendentious. There is a reason why the number of editors who will ensure that removal in BLP areas far outstrips the manpower available when it's an NFCC issue, and it's most certainly not because there are more people here who are clueless about image policy than about BLP policy - it's that prevailing atmosphere of utter condescension of other experienced editors by a tiny tiny group that pervades this area and its consensus building venues like an all encompassing smog. In that environment it's pretty damn easy to make gradual unconsensual tweaks to guidelines and to employ the model of BRRRRRRD on a massive scale. MickMacNee (talk) 13:42, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I can support this. "Minimality" is not an absolute threshold. What it means is: we use as much as it takes (but not more). Illustrating the designs in a set of banknotes is a significant part of an article about a currency. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- For the reader to understand an article about the currency, and for them to be able to visually identify the currency when they encounter it (an important purpose of articles about currencies), images of all denominations of the currency are required. That seems rather self-evident to me, actually. Sandstein 18:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Usefulness is not a factor we consider on WP. We are also not a travel guide. We do not - nor can be - the one-shop stop for all information, and we should wisely be using external resources that are much better suited to this purpose. --MASEM (t) 20:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight. You are saying we should provide links to external sources that are violating copyright/fair use laws? — BQZip01 — talk 23:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not, but I never said anything about copyvio sites. There are sites out there - whether in official capacity as the government body printing the money, or as an educational site bound only by fair use - that likely publish all these images and aren't bound by a free content mission. As long as these are official or otherwise reliable sites that follow WP:EL, we have every ability to shuffle off full details on a subject to these places, including all the images we could not include. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm. You have a valid point. If that is consistent from country to country, I would endorse that as a viable alternative standard. — BQZip01 — talk 03:51, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not, but I never said anything about copyvio sites. There are sites out there - whether in official capacity as the government body printing the money, or as an educational site bound only by fair use - that likely publish all these images and aren't bound by a free content mission. As long as these are official or otherwise reliable sites that follow WP:EL, we have every ability to shuffle off full details on a subject to these places, including all the images we could not include. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Let me get this straight. You are saying we should provide links to external sources that are violating copyright/fair use laws? — BQZip01 — talk 23:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Usefulness is not a factor we consider on WP. We are also not a travel guide. We do not - nor can be - the one-shop stop for all information, and we should wisely be using external resources that are much better suited to this purpose. --MASEM (t) 20:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Comprehensively illustrating the appearance of a currency is an encyclopedic purpose in its own right, and needs no apology or excuse. "Minimal use" is not intended to erode comprehensive coverage. Thparkth (talk) 18:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's the minimal use requirement that can't be eroded (see point #3 here). Do you have a link to a supporting document indicating we should erode minimal use in favor of comprehensive coverage? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I suppose that we could also ask you if you have a link defining "minimal use"? "maximum use"? The foundation intentionally left that vague so we could define it ourselves. — BQZip01 — talk 23:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't suggested that we should "erode minimal use". I'm not sure how you could possibly have interpreted my comment as suggesting that. Thparkth (talk) 01:37, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's the minimal use requirement that can't be eroded (see point #3 here). Do you have a link to a supporting document indicating we should erode minimal use in favor of comprehensive coverage? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Makes the most sense. — BQZip01 — talk 23:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- They left it vague, yes, but they also left a requirement: when there is opportunity to replace non-free with free equivalents, we must do so. Hence why we don't allow non-free images of living persons for their sole representation because its nearly always possible to get a free image of that person. Here, we have offered a solution where some non-free is kept to provide an example, the rest replaced by free text that extrapolates from that example. That's a free replacement for many non-free uses, and we're bound by the Foundation to take it, on the presumption that consensus agrees this is serving the same equivalent purpose. --MASEM (t) 23:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. And this even qualifies as minimal use: if each banknote were on its own page, nobody would object to an image of the note on that page. Why is it any different if, instead of scattering the same content across multiple pages, we just aggregate the same minimal images into one comprehensive article? (Assuming that there are no individual pages for each note, which is in fact the case for the vast majority of currency articles.) Jpatokal (talk) 03:24, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Having 50 pages with each one image may be fine, while having all 50 on one page may be overuse, indeed. The point is, that if they are on one page, their inclusion can be not justifiable (and often is not), and the contrast is, that it may even be that 10 may be fine (minimal) if they are on one page, while for another situation having 50 separate is also minimal. However, in all cases, they are not in line with our mission, it still is not a free encyclopedia .. --Dirk Beetstra T C 18:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, this is not about the number of non-free images that are being used throughout Wikipedia (or even, en.wikipedia), it is about the number of non-free images that are used on one page. If there are 50 non-free images on one page, then that needs proper clarification, argumentation why 50 are needed on one page, while if those same 50 would be used on 50 separate pages that would not be a problem (though still, all 50 would in both cases need a justification of why they are used). If you would want to use a certain free image twice on one page, you would a) need a justification of why you need that image on that page under fair use, ánd b) a justification of why you need it twice - if you have two banknotes which are exactly the same except for the colour, then for each you would need to justify why it is there, and then for the 2 you need to justify why both are needed - the problem is that you can not justify under fair-use that the second needs to be displayed, as it is the same except for the colour, hence, the second is overuse under fair-use. For now, in many cases where there are 10+ images on a page, there is justification of why each image is needed, but not a justification why so many images are needed. And in the case of banknotes, often (yes, not always) series have similar features, and showing all on one page can not be justified, even the second does not add anything that the first not already did (except describable differences - another face, another monument, another colour - but that does not justify the use of the second one). It may in the end be that there will be pages with 18 images (out of say 9 series) of the 45 total images displayed, but 50 is overuse, 18 there is not. Displaying the other 27 images can not be justified under fair-use, and hence is in violation of copyright. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support I find it unfortunate that there seem to be an increasing number of users that feel our image use policies are intended as a tool to help them find stuff to delete. The legal risk of using such images is extremely low, and the educational benefit is obvious. There is no reason other than slavish obedience to remove such images. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Legal risk isn't the point. If that was our metric, we wouldn't be having this RfC. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Which legal risk, this is fair-use, Beeblebrox. There is no legal risk. But I am afraid you are missed the point. --Dirk Beetstra T C 17:36, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support This a serious encyclopedia covering a wide range of topics. You can't discuss the design of a country's banknotes without including an image. It's not like a PD image is going to be available. Edgepedia (talk) 18:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- The difference between Viewpoint 2 and Viewpoint 3 is that 2 suggests using two images (obverse and reverse) for every circulating unit of currency in the given currency system, and 3 suggests using a representative sample from the entire system. In fact, none of the viewpoints are suggesting no images on numismatics articles (though Viewpoint 5 goes to an abstract concept, not specifically numismatics). --Hammersoft (talk) 18:34, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support The articles are meaningless without this material. The goal of Wikipedia is to provide information, and the enWP accepts that in some cases this requires the use of non-free images. This is true both in article on individual items of currency and combination articles about the currency of a country. DGG ( talk ) 07:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support If one is reading an article about a unit currency an accurate image is necesscary anything less is a disservince to readers St8fan (talk) 21:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. I support our use of non-free content under the fair use provisions of US copyright law, when free content is unavailable or even merely "weak". Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Endorse. Designs on coins and banknotes are almost always intricate enough that replacing images with textual descriptions is just silly. TotientDragooned (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support Encyclopedias perform an educational function, this is a non-problem in my estimation. There are multiple gazillions of non-free images across Wikipedia — company logos, product photos, album covers, and so on. The minority of banknotes subject to limitations upon reproduction shouldn't be the cause of gnashing of teeth and mass removal efforts. Carrite (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- Support. This is definitely a case where the nonfree images are integral to the article subject, the images can not be effectively replaced by a text description, and there is no free alternative that the nonfree images are replacing. That using these banknote images makes articles "less free" is just an empty ideological slogan without any concrete consequences laid out that I can see; all of the objections are completely abstract. If the concern is downstream users, I don't see anyone setting forth ideas as to how it can be made easier for them to filter out nonfree content. Nonfree files could be given a different tag in wikimarkup than free files for example, and the article print feature could have an option of printing without any nonfree images. postdlf (talk) 20:50, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- Support, per Talk:Croatian kuna/Archives/2012#Use of non-free images on this article. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- Support, with the caveat that sometimes a bunch of notes do look alike *cough* usa *cough*, and in that case no. I understand that I'm echoing VernoWhitney's reason for opposing. But it's clear that any viewpoint with nuance or shade of grey is not acceptable to some elements, and if I must choose a binary position it's the "pro-reader,pro-image" one. I'm trying to figure out which of the comments below I find most ill-informed, but "The way the paper and coins look is not that important anymore" looks like a strong contender. I'm also unclear how this very limited inclusion of images will automagically change articles into "detailed travel guide[s]." Is it really that difficult to grasp that there is a yawning gap between "one or none" and "showing every possible image?" Finally, if I may mangle a metaphor, the actual "slippery slope of other types of lists" here runs uphill: One type of list's square peg of a sensible editorial decision (removing images from bare episode guides, discographies, etc) is being hammered into a round hole of "no images in lists." The exclusion that is being carved out here is simply one that is common sense and calls for case-by-case judgment, and this RfC is only required for obvious items like this due to the "nuke NFC" mentality of some NFC proponants. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:00, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support North8000 (talk) 10:01, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose (Viewpoint 2)
- That is also achieved when only displaying 1-3 images - one does not need to show all. The use of non-free images should be minimised (and note, that no-one has said that we should remove all of them, that only is done to aid the process of selecting the ones that need to stay!). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See also Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, a 'Wikipedia policy with legal considerations'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:01, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- The statement goes against the spirit of the "minimal use" clause of NFCC. We need to be more selective. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 12:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- A single image is too much? — BQZip01 — talk 22:49, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose as this would permit the mass overuse of non-free images on any numismatics articles. Case point; Euro coins which recently had more than a hundred non-free images, and in actuality had far more due to copyright violations being used from Commons (which are now being deleted). This is several times more non-free images than the second highest article History of painting which has 42. It's wholly unnecessary to display every single image of every single currency denomination in a currency system in order for a person to have an understanding of that currency system. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- You use the phrase "mass overuse" way too much as if your view is somehow a proven fact. It isn't. 42 images may indeed be an ideal number for a certain article. Maybe it is 100. That is what this RFC is trying to decide. — BQZip01 — talk 23:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Making the case for one allowance for illustrating every element of a list with mostly non-free images will lead to the slippery slope of other types of lists wanting the same allowance for the same purpose. It is possible to still illustrate such currency lists with a few non-frees and appropriate text, alongside appropriate references and external linkage, without losing any educational value. --MASEM (t) 16:17, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I just don't see the slippery slope here and you are drawing conclusions based upon fact not in evidence. Your logic is that "if we set up something like this, everyone will also want it." In fact, we are simply specifying a max. We are saying there is a value added to having the images. The "maximum number" allowed should be clearly defined. — BQZip01 — talk 23:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's been long established why it is impossible to identify what the maximum number of non-free images per page may be, because it varied by article type, sourcing, and a number of other factors. Some articles can support 20 non-frees easily, some cannot support a single free image. The desire of a one-size-fits-all NFC maximum number is understood, but it just cannot happen. If you set it for one type to a "high" number, even 1 or 2, then everyone will want 1 or 2 NFC images on articles that didn't need any. --MASEM (t) 23:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it varies by article type. That's why we confine our definition to fit a specific type. Example: An article about a country's currency is permitted to have the front and back of each major denomination in the article; this usage falls in line with for NFCC#X and NFCC#Y, though it must independently meet all other NFCC criteria. (underlined portion can be tailored to whatever consensus determines). This only sets a framework. All other portions must still be met and it's similar to our "if a person is alive..." criteria. — BQZip01 — talk 04:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- And as soon as you say "this article type is special" others will argue that their article types are just as much an educational purpose that they should be able to set an upper bound for NFC inclusion. And even then, within the same image type, the bounds will be gamed. The maximum number of non-free images has to be evaluated on an article-by-article basis. --MASEM (t) 06:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are arguing that this case is somehow "special". I contend it isn't. Clearly defining what has been accepted as consensus is what guidelines and policy are designed for. Like I say below, I don't care if we define it as a single front side of a bill or coin, a single front & back, or every imaginable bill (if that's what consensus on what "minimal" is), we need to simply put our collective foot down and define it to prevent these drawn-out fights/bickering. Yes, if other projects feel that this same logic applies to them and there is a consensus (I don't agree for "list of ..."), why would we not codify it to prevent squabbling? That is the point of setting guidelines. — BQZip01 — talk 21:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- I am saying that the argument is that currency images are "special" above any other non-free image is what is going to cause a slippery slope. To a member of a modern art Wikiproject, where most 20th century works remain in copyright, they would likely complain that we have to exclude key works of art while we're able to show every denomination of money for every country, and, even if the currency case is codified, they will want their own slice. Then other projects will want similar slices. This happens on WP, the evidence is how gargantuan the sports notability guideline has gotten because individual but less significant sports want their own callout for what they can include and "bypass" standard notability. The current groupthink mentality on WP tells me that if we trying to specialize the allowance of NFC on per-article bases, we are only going to end up with something worse than NSPORT is right now. --MASEM (t) 01:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are arguing that this case is somehow "special". I contend it isn't. Clearly defining what has been accepted as consensus is what guidelines and policy are designed for. Like I say below, I don't care if we define it as a single front side of a bill or coin, a single front & back, or every imaginable bill (if that's what consensus on what "minimal" is), we need to simply put our collective foot down and define it to prevent these drawn-out fights/bickering. Yes, if other projects feel that this same logic applies to them and there is a consensus (I don't agree for "list of ..."), why would we not codify it to prevent squabbling? That is the point of setting guidelines. — BQZip01 — talk 21:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- And as soon as you say "this article type is special" others will argue that their article types are just as much an educational purpose that they should be able to set an upper bound for NFC inclusion. And even then, within the same image type, the bounds will be gamed. The maximum number of non-free images has to be evaluated on an article-by-article basis. --MASEM (t) 06:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it varies by article type. That's why we confine our definition to fit a specific type. Example: An article about a country's currency is permitted to have the front and back of each major denomination in the article; this usage falls in line with for NFCC#X and NFCC#Y, though it must independently meet all other NFCC criteria. (underlined portion can be tailored to whatever consensus determines). This only sets a framework. All other portions must still be met and it's similar to our "if a person is alive..." criteria. — BQZip01 — talk 04:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's been long established why it is impossible to identify what the maximum number of non-free images per page may be, because it varied by article type, sourcing, and a number of other factors. Some articles can support 20 non-frees easily, some cannot support a single free image. The desire of a one-size-fits-all NFC maximum number is understood, but it just cannot happen. If you set it for one type to a "high" number, even 1 or 2, then everyone will want 1 or 2 NFC images on articles that didn't need any. --MASEM (t) 23:48, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I just don't see the slippery slope here and you are drawing conclusions based upon fact not in evidence. Your logic is that "if we set up something like this, everyone will also want it." In fact, we are simply specifying a max. We are saying there is a value added to having the images. The "maximum number" allowed should be clearly defined. — BQZip01 — talk 23:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose Minimal means as little as possible, showing every possible image is not needed, you could easily show 1-5 images and convey the same general information and overall information. We nuked NFC in list of.... and discographies this is nothing different ΔT The only constant 02:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- There is a big difference: Most discographies and "list of X" articles contain links to other pages which also use the images, so the images are used twice --> not minimal. However, for currency articles, there are no standalone articles for individual notes, and the image is only used once --> minimal. Jpatokal (talk) 04:05, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Minimal does not require that. A US 20 dollar note is largely the same as a 5 or a 100, except for a different dead white guy. Having a 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 and 100 does nothing to increase reader comprehension. -- ۩ Mask 05:29, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- I trust you'll be prodding United States one-dollar bill, United States two-dollar bill, United States five-dollar bill, etc shortly then, since they're all largely the same? Jpatokal (talk) 07:00, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are missing the elephant in the room, the articles you suggest prodding use free content something we promote. Yes they may visually look similar, but becuase they are under a free license they could use 10, 100, or even 1,000 images of those and I wouldn't care. When an article uses non-free content its something that needs to be carefully controlled, and uses as little as possible, and similar usage of material cannot be justified. ΔT The only constant 10:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Feel free to substitute articles like 5 euro note, 10 euro note etc, where the images are not free content. Jpatokal (talk) 11:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- I hope you actually looked at the images on 5 euro note .. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The bit where it says "This design is copyrighted by the European Central Bank (ECB)" and sets out a whole raft of conditions for use? Doesn't sound like free content to me! (Frankly, I'm surprised Commons accepts them, but that's another story.) Jpatokal (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, 'a whole raft of conditions', now read again. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The only real restrictions that their copyright is there to prevent is counterfeit currency, they freely released it otherwise for any other use. (you can put it on a T-shit and sell it). ΔT The only constant 12:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are missing the elephant in the room, the articles you suggest prodding use free content something we promote. Yes they may visually look similar, but becuase they are under a free license they could use 10, 100, or even 1,000 images of those and I wouldn't care. When an article uses non-free content its something that needs to be carefully controlled, and uses as little as possible, and similar usage of material cannot be justified. ΔT The only constant 10:57, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- I trust you'll be prodding United States one-dollar bill, United States two-dollar bill, United States five-dollar bill, etc shortly then, since they're all largely the same? Jpatokal (talk) 07:00, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, if I'm clear on what the subject means (display of a reverse/obverse image for each denomination). Display of a reverse/obverse image for one denomination is sufficient for illustrative purposes. I don't understand the objections based on legal risk. If we were only worried about legal risk, we would gladly accept "on Wikipedia only" or "noncommercial use only" images, as both clearly apply and reduce the legal risk to zero. Rather, this is a free content project, and we aim for minimal use of nonfree content even when legal to use it. Similarly, I don't understand the objection on lawyering over "minimal use". Using every conceivable image is maximal use, there's no legitimate way anyone could consider that minimal. Seraphimblade Talk to me 09:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- You're assuming that the clause applies to a single topic, rather than the pedia as a whole. Challenging where these assumptions come from, and the basis for these beliefs that 2 images is sufficient for 'illustration' (or that fair use is allowed just for illustration, whatever that means - identification or just a vague idea?) is not wikilawyering. And everybody here knows the difference between what's fair use legally and what we will allow, it's a distinction that's made often enough. We are here to debate the meaning of minimal use in the context of the NFCC. And it should be pointed out that you are factually wrong on your idea of maximal - every conceivable image in a currency system would be every image from every aspect of every denomination, including historical & even commemorative issues. MickMacNee (talk) 12:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, not a detailed travel guide. We are supposed to comment only on the encyclopedic details of the currency. You can achieve that without images or with a minimum of non-free images. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose This is a case of overgeneralization. I don't believe that we can categorically state that in all cases the use of such images is both minimal and that the omission of any such images would be detrimental to the readers' understanding of the topic. If multiple almost identical bills are discussed on an article then I don't see how including images of more than one bill would in all cases significantly improve the reader's understanding. VernoWhitney (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose This is the digital age; most of the money that you dear readers have is entirely electronic from the moment it is deposited into your account until the moment it is ACH'ed out to pay your bills. The way the paper and coins look is not that important anymore and images of those artifacts exceed the "minimum required" test. Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 19:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Comment (Viewpoint 2)
Viewpoint 3: Use only enough non-free images to provide a representative sample
Support (Viewpoint 3)
- Support: To be encyclopedic, a representative sample is all that is required. We don't use sounds samples from every song on an album, for example, to give readers an understanding of the album. Currency systems generally have similar styling across its denominations. A discussion of that style can occur, along with discussion of security features, and history of the currency system without having to display every single image in the set. We are not a catalog. Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy implores us that non-free content must be kept to a minimum. As the Foundation says, "This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects". Beyond the representative sample, if there is a particular denomination that has received attention via secondary sources, for example a defect in a given issue, than an inclusion of an image might be appropriate. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support A completely fair line to balance visualization on a list-like article and the free content mission. --MASEM (t) 13:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support, completely in line with the mission of the Foundation and in line with building a as-free-as-possible encyclopedia. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. The bills in a set are usually variations of the same style. Once we've illustrated the style, what's relevant about the others in the set are who and what is stamped there and why (ex: "Mr. President X is show in the Monumental Building because this is where he was killed..."). --Damiens.rf 14:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support Minimal means as little as possible, one of each is not minimal, or we would not have purged our List of.. style articles of a majority of their images. ΔT The only constant 02:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support Compliant with our mission and founding goals. -- ۩ Mask 05:31, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support, while there's legitimate disagreement over what fits the "minimal" criterion, an exhaustive gallery of every last one hardly qualifies—that is, indeed, the direct opposite, maximal use. An image of a $1 bill would give a reasonable idea as to what US currency looks like (by way of example only, US currency isn't really at issue here). Similarly, most currencies maintain a consistent theme. It's not necessary to have an image of every denomination to provide an example. Keeping use to a minimum is in keeping with both project and Foundation policy. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:51, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly That's the strategy to use when dealing with non-free images. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support, per Talk:Croatian kuna/Archives/2012#Use of non-free images on this article. The aforementioned viewpoint #2 and this one are actually effectively one and the same in my view - the set of current banknotes is a representative sample. If we want to e.g. show the 10 and 200 HRK bills but not show the 50 or 100 HRK bill, yet maintain the notion that we're providing the same, representative amount of information, we need to provide a more detailed picture of the notes and explain in the image caption which parts are substantially different in the notes not shown, and which ones are the same or very similar. At that point, we're going against the spirit of fair use (detailed vs. non-detailed view), so there's little point in avoiding simply showing them all. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- Support, first choice. I believe that if we apply good editorial judgement, patience, and polite communnication we can find reasonable middle ground. Like many other aspect of a good article, "just enough" is the right amount. I also beleive that in the current NFC climate it is very difficult to get some editors to engage in anything other than shouting slogans. (Both sides, I'm talking about here, mind you.) - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose (Viewpoint 3)
- Completely subjective. Makes massive assumptions on the part of the reader frankly, aswell as the nature of world currencies. It's laughable to pretend all Euro coins are pretty much the same, that 'seen one, seen them all' would remotely make sense in the context of someone actually using the articles for actual educational endeavour. The Foundation's imploring of 'minimal use' can just as easily be interpreted as 'restricted to fields such as currencies'. How many articles out of millions is that? I would bet it's minimal. There's not one person who comes up with these personal interpretations of what they think the Foundation means that has ever had any concrete backing for their assumptions. Thus, their often freely admitted philosophical positions on the matter - that Wikipedia shoud contain no non-free imagery at all, comes into play, to inform as to the rationality of their views. And as a policy with legal implications - there's also not a single legal precedent that comes close to their interpretations either. Infact, quite the opposite as has already been alluded to. That's in contrast to something like the BLP policy, where there is actual legal precedent for a hell of a lot of it, and legal principle as well as common sense precautionary principles backing the rest, not least common decency. The same cannot really be argued here tbh. MickMacNee (talk) 13:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Groups have been sued - and lost - for overuse of fair use media [2]. There is legal precedent here. Furthermore, there are Wikis, liked the German one, that allow no non-free images, and they seem to be thriving just as well. I don't expect we'll ever convince enough editors that en.wiki should go that way, but we still need to recognize its possible to be using zero non-free media and still serve an educational purpose. Wikipedia cannot be the end-all, be-all of the web , and we should rely on official external sources to provide complete imagery for a topic, something WP simply cannot nor should not be able to do. --MASEM (t) 14:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- The JK Rowling lexicon? Not even comparable. I said precedent, not 'a case'. MickMacNee (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- It was tried and won in a court of law. Therefore: precedent. Of course, WP itself has never been tried and sued yet (to the best that I know) for fair use overuse, and the "educational" aspect as opposed the commercial aspect of the lexicon is a strong differentiator, but the precedent is still there. --MASEM (t) 15:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Again, I was aware there have been legal cases over fair use. I am still not seeing how you think this case had a finding or decision that would inform the issue here as to how much is too much, in the same way that other case law informs BLP in that it has set some very specific precedents around libel and free speech etc. It's simply far too dissimilar. And when you look at the general principles, they're no help either. The case upheld the principle that people can use as much non free content as is justifible to aid readers, if their purpose is to create reference works or guides. So that's adding nothing new here is it, as interpreting that is pretty much what we're already arguing over. And rather than how much is too much, the issue seemed to be how much original work the author had to put into it to not make it look like it had been ripped off wholesale, rather than the physical amount of stuff he had ripped off. How about I just make it clearer - there's been no legal precedent in the field of how many images is too many for the purposes of a reference work on the images, and certainly not one that says things like '1 or 2 is enough' when you are dealing with a potential set in the 100s. Too show how dissimilar this case was - it's hard to imagine a Harry Potter lexicon that only included the names of 1 or 2 spells, on the basis that that was enough to get the general gist of what they were called or did. I don't get the impression that was the outcome at all. MickMacNee (talk) 02:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The case upheld the principle that people can use as much non free content as is justifible to aid readers, if their purpose is to create reference works or guides. You are aware that JK Rowling won that case, and the lexicon lost and had to pay damages? Now, has WP been sued yet over image overuse? Heck no, but then why would they put forth the whole Resolution if not to cover their butts in fair use defenses? --MASEM (t) 04:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- If you're going to cite cases, please read up on them first. I was fully aware who won and who lost when I made the above comments, which still stand. The resolution is fully in line with the principles it upheld. The issue is your wish to interpret it differently to others in this situation, without any legal precedent to support your assertion that your interpretation of minimal use for the purposes of a reference work is as valid as anyone elses. I would suspect the same is probably true of your free replacement text theory. MickMacNee (talk) 15:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- My point is not that the Foundation's resolution is based on a specific legal precedent but that it is a legal policy because it is helping to protect the Foundation in potential cases. Contrarily, the BLP statement is based on past WP history to avoid lawsuits from slighted individuals due to BLP violations.
The assertion that minimal use is a necessary element is directly out of the resolution: An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose, such as is the case for almost all portraits of living notable individuals. If we can identify a way to replace one or more non-frees with free content (a combination text and free images alongside irreplaceable non-free content) we must do so, per the Foundation. Now, I'm willing to argue on the point if one bill (front + back) image alongside a table of what is on the front and back of all other bills is a sufficient replacement for showing all front and back images, but I do find that's very hard not to recognize that the freer version serves the same purpose for the purposes of an encyclopedia (not a fully-complete reference guide) as the complete non-free version. --MASEM (t) 01:31, 12 May 2011 (UTC)- My whole initial comment was predicated on the fact that it's a policy with legal implications. I find it impossible to agree that there's any free replacement for copyright images of currency used for the purposes of identification. And whether we are obliged by the resolution to force people to use their imaginations alongsige similar images and some text because we're an encyclopoedia is indeed up for debate, as I thought we were here to do. Maybe we just have different ideas about what a reference work actually is. MickMacNee (talk) 12:12, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Given that we are an encyclopedia, our goal being to summarize and direct people to third party sources as opposed to spelling out every detail, then it makes even more sense to use a minimal amount of non-free images to show examples of currency alongside appropriate references so if users really need to find out more, they can. --MASEM (t) 12:44, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- My whole initial comment was predicated on the fact that it's a policy with legal implications. I find it impossible to agree that there's any free replacement for copyright images of currency used for the purposes of identification. And whether we are obliged by the resolution to force people to use their imaginations alongsige similar images and some text because we're an encyclopoedia is indeed up for debate, as I thought we were here to do. Maybe we just have different ideas about what a reference work actually is. MickMacNee (talk) 12:12, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- My point is not that the Foundation's resolution is based on a specific legal precedent but that it is a legal policy because it is helping to protect the Foundation in potential cases. Contrarily, the BLP statement is based on past WP history to avoid lawsuits from slighted individuals due to BLP violations.
- If you're going to cite cases, please read up on them first. I was fully aware who won and who lost when I made the above comments, which still stand. The resolution is fully in line with the principles it upheld. The issue is your wish to interpret it differently to others in this situation, without any legal precedent to support your assertion that your interpretation of minimal use for the purposes of a reference work is as valid as anyone elses. I would suspect the same is probably true of your free replacement text theory. MickMacNee (talk) 15:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The case upheld the principle that people can use as much non free content as is justifible to aid readers, if their purpose is to create reference works or guides. You are aware that JK Rowling won that case, and the lexicon lost and had to pay damages? Now, has WP been sued yet over image overuse? Heck no, but then why would they put forth the whole Resolution if not to cover their butts in fair use defenses? --MASEM (t) 04:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Again, I was aware there have been legal cases over fair use. I am still not seeing how you think this case had a finding or decision that would inform the issue here as to how much is too much, in the same way that other case law informs BLP in that it has set some very specific precedents around libel and free speech etc. It's simply far too dissimilar. And when you look at the general principles, they're no help either. The case upheld the principle that people can use as much non free content as is justifible to aid readers, if their purpose is to create reference works or guides. So that's adding nothing new here is it, as interpreting that is pretty much what we're already arguing over. And rather than how much is too much, the issue seemed to be how much original work the author had to put into it to not make it look like it had been ripped off wholesale, rather than the physical amount of stuff he had ripped off. How about I just make it clearer - there's been no legal precedent in the field of how many images is too many for the purposes of a reference work on the images, and certainly not one that says things like '1 or 2 is enough' when you are dealing with a potential set in the 100s. Too show how dissimilar this case was - it's hard to imagine a Harry Potter lexicon that only included the names of 1 or 2 spells, on the basis that that was enough to get the general gist of what they were called or did. I don't get the impression that was the outcome at all. MickMacNee (talk) 02:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- This slippery slope argument doesn't hold water. The FBI tried to sue and Wikipedia said "bring it on". Illustrating what each banknote/coin looks should be a bare minimum for every coinage article in a quality encyclopedia. — BQZip01 — talk 22:57, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Several mistakes in that statement, making it incomparable to the issue at hand: 1) the FBI only requested its removal, which the Foundation say "no" and 2) that's a PD image (for en.wiki) and thus there's nothing regarding "fair use" on the claim. If the FBI followed up on the Foundation's response, the newsfeeds are awfully quiet about it. [3]. --MASEM (t) 23:07, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- It was tried and won in a court of law. Therefore: precedent. Of course, WP itself has never been tried and sued yet (to the best that I know) for fair use overuse, and the "educational" aspect as opposed the commercial aspect of the lexicon is a strong differentiator, but the precedent is still there. --MASEM (t) 15:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I believe it's incorrect to state that the German Wikipedia uses no non-free images. If that's the case, what are images like this doing in articles? Firsfron of Ronchester 14:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Trademarks != copyrighted/NFC images. A trademarked image may be considered too simple to be copyrigtable (see Threshold of Originality), which appears to be the case here. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, this is a non-free image. See the same logo on our project. Are you telling me that images like these are "too simple" to be copyrightable, but are listed as non-free on our encyclopedia project, and have an equivalent tag on the German project ("the file may only be used for encyclopedic purposes"), but are somehow "free" images? Firsfron of Ronchester 14:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- German copyright law is a little unique, under German law they are not copyrightable, just trademarkable. ΔT The only constant 14:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is not what Masem is stating. He is stating that the image is "too simple" to be copyrightable, citing Threshold of originality, not that the German copyright law is unique. And if German copyright law is unique enough that non-free images may be used in encyclopedia articles, what is the point of stating that the "German Wikipedia uses no non-free images" when we cannot fall back on the same laws on the English language Wikipedia? Masem stated that it is "possible to be using zero non-free media and still serve an educational purpose," citing the German Wikipedia as example, but that is not the case. If their copyright laws are different, that does not help us on this project. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Also to add that the ToO does vary by country to country, where it exists (much as the Freedom of Panorama does as well). --MASEM (t) 15:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Under German law, those images are free, hence, the German Wikipedia does not use any non-free images, and hence, it is possible to build a Wiki without any non-free images. --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:12, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Under another encyclopedia project, the images are not trademarked (but rights are reserved). These are not free images; they may not be used freely (the tag clearly states they "may only be used for encyclopedic purposes"). And so it is not possible to build a Wiki without any free images, and certainly not on the English language edition of Wikipedia, where German law does not apply. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to see proof that it is not possible to build an encyclopedia without non-free images. That none exists doesn't mean it isn't possible... —Кузьма討論 18:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- see es:Main Page the Spanish wikipedia has zero local images, all of their images come from commons. ΔT The only constant 02:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- I would like to see proof that it is not possible to build an encyclopedia without non-free images. That none exists doesn't mean it isn't possible... —Кузьма討論 18:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Under another encyclopedia project, the images are not trademarked (but rights are reserved). These are not free images; they may not be used freely (the tag clearly states they "may only be used for encyclopedic purposes"). And so it is not possible to build a Wiki without any free images, and certainly not on the English language edition of Wikipedia, where German law does not apply. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is not what Masem is stating. He is stating that the image is "too simple" to be copyrightable, citing Threshold of originality, not that the German copyright law is unique. And if German copyright law is unique enough that non-free images may be used in encyclopedia articles, what is the point of stating that the "German Wikipedia uses no non-free images" when we cannot fall back on the same laws on the English language Wikipedia? Masem stated that it is "possible to be using zero non-free media and still serve an educational purpose," citing the German Wikipedia as example, but that is not the case. If their copyright laws are different, that does not help us on this project. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:03, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- German copyright law is a little unique, under German law they are not copyrightable, just trademarkable. ΔT The only constant 14:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, this is a non-free image. See the same logo on our project. Are you telling me that images like these are "too simple" to be copyrightable, but are listed as non-free on our encyclopedia project, and have an equivalent tag on the German project ("the file may only be used for encyclopedic purposes"), but are somehow "free" images? Firsfron of Ronchester 14:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Trademarks != copyrighted/NFC images. A trademarked image may be considered too simple to be copyrigtable (see Threshold of Originality), which appears to be the case here. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- The JK Rowling lexicon? Not even comparable. I said precedent, not 'a case'. MickMacNee (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Groups have been sued - and lost - for overuse of fair use media [2]. There is legal precedent here. Furthermore, there are Wikis, liked the German one, that allow no non-free images, and they seem to be thriving just as well. I don't expect we'll ever convince enough editors that en.wiki should go that way, but we still need to recognize its possible to be using zero non-free media and still serve an educational purpose. Wikipedia cannot be the end-all, be-all of the web , and we should rely on official external sources to provide complete imagery for a topic, something WP simply cannot nor should not be able to do. --MASEM (t) 14:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose based solely upon the wording. This RfC is designed to answer that question, not codify that phrasing and inviting more discussions like this. Let's solve the problem people. I'd prefer to have a "let's have no images" than "let's decide every individual article differently." — BQZip01 — talk 23:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. A "representative sample" of one or two images is often wholly insufficient for a topic. Consider the article Fifty pence (British coin) — can any of the supporters tell me that this version is as informative and useful as this version, or that it would be possible to approximate the latter with one or two images? Jpatokal (talk) 11:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- As informative: yes - The example images let me recognize the distinctive shape of the 50p coin and the way the coin is typically engraved, and from that, the description of who or what is shown on each side is pretty clear. If you inserted one of the 50p coins among a handful of other coinage, along with the two example images and text of what the rest of the images are, I fail to see how anyone wouldn't be able to ID the 50p coin from that. As useful: no, but WP is a tertiary summary reference work, not for utility like a travel guide or a more in-depth reference on British coin that we can link to from the bottom of said article. --MASEM (t) 12:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose' A sample is relatively meaningless; the notability is in the entire series, and the article needs to show them all for basic comprehensibility. DGG ( talk ) 07:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- If I showed you the front and back of a $5 bill and told you that the $10 bill has Alexander Hamilton and the US Treasury on front and back respectively, (both which we have free images of to show), would it not be unexpected that the end user would be able to extrapolate what the $10 may look like without showing them that, sufficient that should they ever hold the bill in their hands they would recognize what it is later? --MASEM (t) 13:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- If I showed you Irises by Vincent van Gogh and told you that Sunflowers has sunflowers in it, would it not be unexpected that the end user would be able to extrapolate what Sunflowers may look like, sufficient that should they ever see the play with their own eyes they would recognize what it is later? And, more importantly, would this be sufficient justification to remove the second image? Jpatokal (talk) 23:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Of course, in the case of bills , we're talking about artwork elements that have received no additional commentary about them, so knowing their exact look is not necessary. In the case of van Gogh paintings, many of them are notable from an art aspect, and thus we have articles on many of them, and the NFCC allowance for an image is assured. Similarly, if a specific denomination of bill has a notable art aspect to it, then we can include it in addition to the example cases per NFCC. --MASEM (t) 23:17, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Where are you pulling this crap from? WP:NFCC does not say anything about "additional commentary" or "notable art aspects", the sole contextual significance requirement is that Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. In the same way that omitting pictures of paintings is obviously detrimental to understanding the artist, omitting pictures of banknotes is detrimental to understanding the currency. Jpatokal (talk) 00:46, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- If there is no discussion of the art or history behind an NFCC image in the text of the body provided by sources, then its use is simply decorative (even here where one could call it "utility" but remember, we're not a guide, we're a tertiary summary source), and there is no way such images can meet the "its omission would be detrimental to that understanding". --MASEM (t) 02:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, it was for exactly this reason that screenshots in episode lists were removed, no critical commentary about the image to justify a fair use claim, they added nothing but decoration. -- ۩ Mask 10:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- A screenshot of a TV program has virtually zero informative content and is indeed decorative. A picture of a banknote, on the other hand, succinctly describes it in entirety, and omitting it is highly detrimental. Jpatokal (talk) 23:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- So does the minimal non-free version of one example NFC of the bill itself, and a statement that on the next denomination, person Y and place Z are pictured on it instead. In fact, the text version of these descriptions for foreign states is more useful to identify people and places that the non-resident will be able to easily recognize (I doubt that a majority of the world population would be able to positively ID Abraham Lincoln from looks alone, but that text link means all the world to comprehension).
Trust me, I appreciate the argument that a picture is worth a thousand words, and if WP's NFC policy was based on fair use only and nothing else, I would have no problem uses a large number of fair use images in this case. But we have a goal we're trying to meet here, and we have to have creative and workable solutions to minimize non-free use. This has been identified here by the case of one example and text discussion otherwise, and I have yet to see any argument that this is not a sufficient replacement from the purposes of an encyclopedia (not as a travel or money-spotting guide). --MASEM (t) 23:35, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- So does the minimal non-free version of one example NFC of the bill itself, and a statement that on the next denomination, person Y and place Z are pictured on it instead. In fact, the text version of these descriptions for foreign states is more useful to identify people and places that the non-resident will be able to easily recognize (I doubt that a majority of the world population would be able to positively ID Abraham Lincoln from looks alone, but that text link means all the world to comprehension).
- A screenshot of a TV program has virtually zero informative content and is indeed decorative. A picture of a banknote, on the other hand, succinctly describes it in entirety, and omitting it is highly detrimental. Jpatokal (talk) 23:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed, it was for exactly this reason that screenshots in episode lists were removed, no critical commentary about the image to justify a fair use claim, they added nothing but decoration. -- ۩ Mask 10:28, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- If there is no discussion of the art or history behind an NFCC image in the text of the body provided by sources, then its use is simply decorative (even here where one could call it "utility" but remember, we're not a guide, we're a tertiary summary source), and there is no way such images can meet the "its omission would be detrimental to that understanding". --MASEM (t) 02:25, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Where are you pulling this crap from? WP:NFCC does not say anything about "additional commentary" or "notable art aspects", the sole contextual significance requirement is that Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. In the same way that omitting pictures of paintings is obviously detrimental to understanding the artist, omitting pictures of banknotes is detrimental to understanding the currency. Jpatokal (talk) 00:46, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Of course, in the case of bills , we're talking about artwork elements that have received no additional commentary about them, so knowing their exact look is not necessary. In the case of van Gogh paintings, many of them are notable from an art aspect, and thus we have articles on many of them, and the NFCC allowance for an image is assured. Similarly, if a specific denomination of bill has a notable art aspect to it, then we can include it in addition to the example cases per NFCC. --MASEM (t) 23:17, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- If I showed you Irises by Vincent van Gogh and told you that Sunflowers has sunflowers in it, would it not be unexpected that the end user would be able to extrapolate what Sunflowers may look like, sufficient that should they ever see the play with their own eyes they would recognize what it is later? And, more importantly, would this be sufficient justification to remove the second image? Jpatokal (talk) 23:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- If I showed you the front and back of a $5 bill and told you that the $10 bill has Alexander Hamilton and the US Treasury on front and back respectively, (both which we have free images of to show), would it not be unexpected that the end user would be able to extrapolate what the $10 may look like without showing them that, sufficient that should they ever hold the bill in their hands they would recognize what it is later? --MASEM (t) 13:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Categorically oppose removing any images we could legally use, even non-free ones, if doing so decreases the quality of the encyclopedia. TotientDragooned (talk) 23:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, because if we are interested in users being able to assess and understand the design cues that characterise a particular country's banknotes and distinguish its from other countries', those are the design cues that operate across the series, which become apparent when you see several of the country's notes -- as for example at Banknotes of the Australian dollar, something which is no longer possible at New Zealand dollar, and wouldn't be even if the odd one or two random examples were added. And secondly because the banknotes in themselves are of public and encyclopedic interest and value; and because I do not believe there is anything legally problematic about our fair use here, neither for us, nor for a verbatim downstream commercial reuser. Jheald (talk) 09:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Comment (Viewpoint 3)
Viewpoint 4: It is impossible to cover numismatics, a visual subject, without images of the subject
Support (Viewpoint 4)
- Wikipedia can NEVER be a 100% 'pure' free encyclopedia. Too many images are irreplaceable so the policy is 'oh well never mind, let's use it anyway'. When it comes to numismatics, articles such as 'Banknotes of XYZ', the article is about the banknotes - about a visual object whose image is essential to understanding and study of that topic. This is not like 'Cameron Diaz', where a single image is sufficient for identification and in any case the article is more about what she has done than what she looks like, this is a topic for which the images are essential for appreciating the subject. Looking at one of the articles cited: [4] the images convey far more information than the text about society, revolutionary heroes, culture, and so on, than the text ever could. As an aside, of that article, it appears from discussions that all images prior to 1999 are public domain while the status of those post-1999 images is less clear. It seems rather pointless in that context to have 100 public domain banknotes and then omit the 9, assuming they are copyrighted, that are actually currently circulating, for ideological free culture reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.117.177 (talk) 14:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- the images convey far more information than the text about society, revolutionary heroes, culture, and so on, than the text ever could. Text that states exactly what is represented on the various denominations is an equivalent replacement for the images of the same to this end. If US currency were not PD, a list of each president on the front and the monument/location on the rear would be serving the same purpose as showing each bill. --MASEM (t) 14:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's patently absurd. Is the text "A woman, kinda smiling, against a dark background" an equivalent replacement of an image of the Mona Lisa? How can you possibly describe "exactly what is represented" on a banknote as text? Banknotes are visual works of art, they cannot be represented in other media any more than you can paint a symphony or sing architecture. Jpatokal (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apples to oranges. This specific case is where there is at least one or two images to show the front and back of one denomination of currency, and then saying that denomination B looks the same expect that it has value X and showing person Y. If there is no specific discussion on the artistic merit of the actual images on the bank note (eg no critical commentary), then for an education purpose, this is a satisfactory replacement - its not necessary to see every example given one. --MASEM (t) 12:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's patently absurd. Is the text "A woman, kinda smiling, against a dark background" an equivalent replacement of an image of the Mona Lisa? How can you possibly describe "exactly what is represented" on a banknote as text? Banknotes are visual works of art, they cannot be represented in other media any more than you can paint a symphony or sing architecture. Jpatokal (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- the images convey far more information than the text about society, revolutionary heroes, culture, and so on, than the text ever could. Text that states exactly what is represented on the various denominations is an equivalent replacement for the images of the same to this end. If US currency were not PD, a list of each president on the front and the monument/location on the rear would be serving the same purpose as showing each bill. --MASEM (t) 14:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Per the argument expressed in support of viewpoint 2. Sandstein 18:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Banknotes are visual works of art, they cannot be represented in other media any more than you can paint a symphony or sing architecture. Jpatokal (talk) 12:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- However, we can link to sites where the images are displayed under a fair-use policy (i.e. legal) without uploading them to Wikipedia (and in that way create a totally free-content encyclopedia). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:23, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Why not do the same to all the other articles with non-free images? I would understand if there was a consistent policy, but this is just arbitrary 86.162.117.177 (talk) 12:39, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- You might want to edit this section. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:48, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, not really, although I can understand the point of view of those that do, my issue is with the capricious arbitrary 'overuse' argument employed here.86.162.117.177 (talk) 13:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Nah, it is not that arbitrary as you think. You do not need to show all the images. A justifiable proper selection is enough. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:24, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, not really, although I can understand the point of view of those that do, my issue is with the capricious arbitrary 'overuse' argument employed here.86.162.117.177 (talk) 13:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- However, we can link to sites where the images are displayed under a fair-use policy (i.e. legal) without uploading them to Wikipedia (and in that way create a totally free-content encyclopedia). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:23, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. It's not actually impossible, it's just so ridiculously inadequate, so distanced from reality, so useless for education, so legally unnecessary, and such a disservice to our readers as to be an embarrassment. This is true for every visual centric topic where 1) the images are inherently non-free and 2) there is no legal doubt whatsoever about our right to use them under fair use. Thparkth (talk) 10:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- So, the m:mission to write a free encyclopedia should just be blanked, deleted, burned, as it is plainly impossible to do so? --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- That seems a little extreme. Why not just continue as we are now, making reasonable use of non-free content where necessary, per WP:NFCC and in accordance with the Foundation's rules? Thparkth (talk) 11:38, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Extreme? Well, as long as we have non-free media on our pages, we are not a free encyclopedia, are we? And that is what we are supposed to be, according to the m:mission/Foundation. OK, the Foundation gives us more leeway (allowing minimal use of non-free media), but I think that with 'ridiculously inadequate, so distanced from reality, so useless for education, so legally unnecessary, and such a disservice to our readers' you mean that we should make unlimited use of non-free media, as we can under the fair-use law ... and I think that actually, that 'ridiculously' and 'useless' is pretty extreme as well - we are not talking about all possible images, but a subset of the images, namely the ones which are non-free. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- I am untroubled by us making a reasonable and minimal accommodation for non-free content, if it improves the encyclopedia. This is what we currently do. The foundation doesn't mind us doing it, and the consensus at en.wiki has always been that we should. Good luck changing that consensus. Thparkth (talk) 12:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, reading here, I am not sure if it is still 'consensus' .. maybe we do overuse fair-use images. And in all my edits here, I have not suggested that I actually want to change that consensus (would not mind either, but that is something different). But not using non-free images is not automatically changing the articles that use them into ridiculous, inadequate, unreal, useless &c. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- So, the m:mission to write a free encyclopedia should just be blanked, deleted, burned, as it is plainly impossible to do so? --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- This is definitely the best position. It may come as news to some, but not all of us are it-has-to-be-FSF-defined-free ideologues here. You cannot provide a quality description of these images without visual accompaniment, and since we can legally and practically provide that accompaniment, we're doing the readers a disservice by refusing to provide it. Nyttend (talk) 18:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Visual data is important to readers; by removing numismatic images, editors are doing a disservice to the readers, who most certainly expect to see an image of the subject in the article. And since the encyclopedia is meant first and foremost for the readers, some non-free content is necessary. Some above have argued that links to images can be provided, but this is a less than ideal solution because of (a) linkrot and (b) because it's still not providing the reader an instant (one-click) identification and description of the subject the way that an image on Wikipedia does. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- SupportNorth8000 (talk) 10:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose (Viewpoint 4)
- Oppose "ideological free culture reasons" are precisely our reason for existence. As inconvenient as that is, that is our purpose here. Further, I don't think anybody is saying NO non-free images on numismatics articles. Judicious and selective use, yes. But, using every image from the set just because they exist is outside our scope. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - Indeed, it's more important for an encyclopedia to explain the iconography used on the bills than to simply show them all. Who is this serious looking bearded guy? What's this building? Why were they selected to be stamped on the bill? I approve the selective use of images in such articles. --Damiens.rf 14:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, funny, other Mediawiki wikis under the same Foundation rules do just that, they cope perfectly well without any non-free images. We are trying to build a free encyclopedia here. --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:00, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Uh, but 'other Mediawiki wikis' are not en.wikipedia. En.wikipedia DEPENDS on non-free images, you could just as well remove the images from Phan Thị Kim Phúc and say 'sorry, it's inconvenient but that's the way it is' - it would be stupid to do so so it hasn't happened; the same principle applies here, these articles are about visual objects of art/culture/commerce, and they are DEPENDENT on those images. It's just not true to say that a text description could replace these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.117.177 (talk) 21:40, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree that we depend on non-free images for certain articles - there are things of which we do not have any availability of (free and non-free) images - so we can not write about those? --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- You say that other wikis "cope perfectly well" without non-free images, but in fact, they do a significantly poorer job of covering important topics. They either a) have national laws that let them freely use content we would have to treat as non-free b) blatantly mark non-free content as free and hope nobody notices so they can use it or c) just have really inadequate articles that almost seem to be exercises in irony. Thparkth (talk) 12:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm .. se de:Pfund Sterlink is 'really inadequate' .. it does tell quite a lot, just does not show the images (it links properly to pages depicting them, though). The local version Pound Sterling here does show some more pictures (am I correct that one of the images has a bad non-free rationale??). When I read the German document, I do get a good understanding of the subject, and I can see the images on another site (a catalogue like). Don't think I am really missing something there (in fact, the link outside shows me all the images, way more than the en.wikipedia version does .. I would call that even more informative ..). And es:Xerox Star does not show a desktop representation and a brochure that the version here Xerox Star does. Now the desktop representation indeed adds something (though more about WYSIWYG than about the Xerox itself) .. the brochure is more ornamental, but in comparison I would not value the es.wikipedia version as an exercise in irony - it is not thát much better than the English version. I am afraid, that ridiculing other wikis is not helping too much, by the way, if the images were not there on en.wikipedia, the Xerox Star article would not turn automagically into a ridiculous article.... Note that the two images used on the es.wikipedia version of the Pound Sterling (es:Libra esterlina) are both on Commons, not on es.wikipedia - maybe commons has tagged them wrongly? Fact remains that that article does not use non-free media (except maybe if it is tagged wrongly, but if you would re-tag it, es.wikipedia will soon clear the act, I presume). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:43, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, the image that you describe as 'blatantly mark[ed] non-free content as free and hope nobody notices so they can use it' is used purely ornamental on en.wikipedia - if that is a non-free image, then the use on en.wikipedia is certainly not fair use ... --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Uh, but 'other Mediawiki wikis' are not en.wikipedia. En.wikipedia DEPENDS on non-free images, you could just as well remove the images from Phan Thị Kim Phúc and say 'sorry, it's inconvenient but that's the way it is' - it would be stupid to do so so it hasn't happened; the same principle applies here, these articles are about visual objects of art/culture/commerce, and they are DEPENDENT on those images. It's just not true to say that a text description could replace these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.117.177 (talk) 21:40, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. To be completely honest, Hammersoft sums it up well. This turns our back on our mission and founding goals. -- ۩ Mask 05:32, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, on the grounds that it's already being done. The German Wikipedia has proven that it's entirely possible to have a project with no nonfree images whatsoever. And while I've not checked (and don't speak but a tiny bit of German), I would bet you that, being the second-largest Wikipedia, they cover numismatics. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose because there are aspects of numismatic that can be covered without images. As above, use a representative sample. No need to provide images of both anverse and reverse for every face value. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:28, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose the literal letter of this viewpoint. It is not, however, possible to cover numismatics well without images. TotientDragooned (talk) 23:04, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose the literal letter of this viewpoint, too. If the Fifty pence (British coin) article linked above is an example of the kind of articles we'd have sans images, I'd suggest that "equilaterally curved heptagon" is correct-but-not-good way to communicate the information. Just as we strive for excellence in the prose, let's not accept second-best articles where it's not required to do so. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Comment (Viewpoint 4)
- Weak support/neutral. I see where you're going with this, but the statement is too generic to be proper. It's perfectly possible to limit ourselves only to talking about how banknotes look like, but it's not reasonable, esp. if we're going to be using a copyright-based policy as a rationale for the former. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Viewpoint 5: It is possible to build an encyclopedia without any non-free images
Support (Viewpoint 5)
- An encyclopedia can be made based on free images only. This is done e.g. on the German Wikipedia (although they have a bit more leeway because they can use images which are free under their copyright law, but which would not be free under our copyright law). Furthermore, if a subject can not be shown via an image, it can be described - that goes for subjects for which we do not have images at all, that goes for subjects for which we do not have a suitable free image, and for subjects for which we do have a non-free image (but which we can not display under fair use). So, that should also be true for images which are fair-use (but still non-free) - we can do without them. --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:22, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Clarification - I have carefully chosen the word 'can' in this text. I am advocating here that we can write without any non-free images - if we can write about subjects that do not have images we do - one could even write about a subject for which images are available, but without including them.
- I am not saying or advocating that we should not use them anymore (though I would indeed not oppose such a proposal ..) - the Foundation has given us the leeway that we can use a minimal amount of non-free, fair-use images (0 would also be minimal ...), I am saying here that we can. My point is - the goal of writing should be 'make this encyclopedia as free as possible' - do with an as low as possible number. But that is not what is done - people almost freely use non-free media throughout in sometimes massive numbers, ignoring the fact that one can perfectly write without having the media there (in some cases you must write without images, or with alternative images (we do not have pictures, drawings, etc. of the Crucifixion of Jesus, we do with alternatives ..). The goal should be to write without the non-free images, possibly linking outwards to places where there is legal display of the subjects. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you could write an article about a currency without any images. But it seems fairly obvious that having images is better than not having images, and since the English Wikipedia does allow fair use images, this all seems very tangential to the actual discussion. Jpatokal (talk) 12:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- So your oppose to viewpoint 5 is a misplaced here (regarding that, note that the Foundation has deemed that minimal use of non-free media is acceptable ..), you do agree that you can write articles without them. But well. There is still a lot of room between no images, 1-3 images (to get the point through and show what is talked about, and maybe for the rest link to outside webpages which show (legally of course) the images), or having every single image there. 1-3 would probably already get >95% of the message through, there is no need for 100% (a heap paradox, maybe). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- It is possible to build an excellent encyclopedia with only free images. Having one might even increase awareness for free content and generate even more free images. —Кузьма討論 18:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Good point, it might even help in generating free images. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- With emphasis on "possible" and "an". It is not necessarily advisable or preferable, and the encyclopedia produced may be less useful/preferable. --Cybercobra (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Easily done, we already have multiple wikipedia's doing that. Take a look at es.wp they have zero local images. But may not be recommended for our language ΔT The only constant 02:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. The second-largest wikipedia functions with no fair use images at all. -- ۩ Mask 05:33, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support, on grounds that it's already being done. The German Wikipedia uses no nonfree images, is one of the larger projects, and is quite well-developed. We're not required to follow that route, but for the question at hand (is it possible?), they've certainly proven that the answer is yes. Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:41, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support Spanish wikipedia doesn't accept fair use images either es:Wikipedia:Uso_legítimo. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:36, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Of course it is possible. It is even possible to build an encyclopedia without any images whatsoever, as I'm sure our blind readers could attest. However, just because something is possible doesn't make it a good idea. TotientDragooned (talk) 22:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Meaningless Support. I'm not sure why this statement is even here to consider, or what it's in aid of... It's possible to tattoo the complete works of William Shakespeare on my backside, but would you want to? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- What it is in aid of, Aaron, is that it is very well possible to write about subjects without images (in many cases we have to, there are no free images, there are not even non-free images of the subject available, we very often have to be happy that there are artist impressions or schemes of a subject, but the real stuff is simply not there). The criterium 'it is absolutely, totally, unquestionably, necessary to have this non-free image here' (which many editors use) is hence not true - it is nice that we have fair-use, we certainly should use it, but we should realise that sometimes 1 image is more than enough, and sometimes even not having an image (even if it would be reasonable fair-use) is enough. We certainly don't want to write without non-free material (and I will never suggest that; though I would certainly not oppose such a proposal (not sure about support of such a proposal at this moment)), but minimal use is closer to 0 than to 'all'/'as much as we have available'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:06, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose (Viewpoint 5)
- It is not possible to build a comprehensive encyclopedia without the use of images that are non-free under US law. Advocates of strict free-use-only are in fact advocating for a less-useful encyclopedia, and that is not why I am here. Thparkth (talk) 18:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See my clarification above. I don't believe it is less useful - Wikipedia would be significantly more useful if we would link out to all commercial places where one can buy a certain subject, include texts of writers, etc. etc., but we can't (the first because we decided that we call that spam, and the second because it would be a plain copyright violation (and using non-free media is an allowed form of a copyright violation)); still both would give more info, enhance this encyclopedia, and help in the understanding and/or usefulness of this encyclopedia . --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- There are some claims above that "there are Wikis, liked the German one, that allow no non-free images, and they seem to be thriving just as well". These claims are patently false, as can be demonstrated by links to hundreds, if not thousands, of non-free images on the German language Wikipedia. If the idea is to provide a quality, thorough body of work that readers will understand, some amount of non-free media is necessary, just as fair-use text is often required to discuss someone's viewpoint. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The German wiki does not allow any non-free images (with respect to German copyright law - there may be non-free images that are on en.wiki that are free images on de.wiki). This is an invalid claim. --MASEM (t) 01:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Those are not free images; they have rights which are reserved, and according to their tag, "may only be used in encyclopedia articles". It is your claim which is invalid. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Then take a look at the Spanish wiki, es:Main Page they have zero local files, all of their media comes from commons. ΔT The only constant 03:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- ...and some of their currency articles rely on non-free images incorrectly uploaded to commons, such as this one. (see here for why). Thparkth (talk) 03:25, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- dont blame es.wiki for issues on commmons, tag the image as a copyvio and move on. Most people users dont double check commons images, they just use them ΔT The only constant 03:27, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, you end up with "Featured" articles like Nancy Drew, illustrated with images like this and this. I don't understand what a silhouette of a woman walking or a lipstick print have to do with Nancy Drew. Why is there an illustration from Harper's Weekly showing two white men beating a black man in the article? That doesn't appear in the text. The text discusses an African-American woman named Beulah serving food, instead. Are all the illustrations on .es this poor? This is supposed to be a Featured Article. It appears that project is hamstrung by its lack of decent images. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:39, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, a quick visit to es.wiki is quite educational in showing the value of allowing fair use content. As an IT person with a strong interest in the history of computing, I'm amazed and saddened to see that their articles charting the history of Graphical User Interface design - Xerox Alto, Apple Macintosh, Windows 3 etc - are completely devoid of screenshots (because they would be non-free, of course). There is some irony in trying to describe why graphical interfaces are considered more usable and intuitive than entirely textual ones, without the use of graphics and entirely in text. There is no doubt that the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation to develop educational content is severely hampered in this area on language wikis which have chosen to disallow all fair use content. Thparkth (talk) 03:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Good point; the purpose of an image (any image) in an encyclopedia is to enhance a reader's understanding of the topic. I can't imagine trying to seriously illustrate a topic like GUI design or graphical development using free clip art. No serious encyclopedia project would. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, a quick visit to es.wiki is quite educational in showing the value of allowing fair use content. As an IT person with a strong interest in the history of computing, I'm amazed and saddened to see that their articles charting the history of Graphical User Interface design - Xerox Alto, Apple Macintosh, Windows 3 etc - are completely devoid of screenshots (because they would be non-free, of course). There is some irony in trying to describe why graphical interfaces are considered more usable and intuitive than entirely textual ones, without the use of graphics and entirely in text. There is no doubt that the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation to develop educational content is severely hampered in this area on language wikis which have chosen to disallow all fair use content. Thparkth (talk) 03:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- ...and some of their currency articles rely on non-free images incorrectly uploaded to commons, such as this one. (see here for why). Thparkth (talk) 03:25, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Then take a look at the Spanish wiki, es:Main Page they have zero local files, all of their media comes from commons. ΔT The only constant 03:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Those are not free images; they have rights which are reserved, and according to their tag, "may only be used in encyclopedia articles". It is your claim which is invalid. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- See my clarification above. I was saying 'can', not 'must'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- I know what you are saying, and I don't believe it's true. The examples given above are the German Wikipedia, which uses the exact same non-free images we use, but under a different license (which cannot be used here), and the Spanish Wikipedia, which decorates even its Featured articles with unrelated Clip Art. A serious encyclopedia would never do this. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:04, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- So, you say that we can never write a serious article about something for which images do not exist? Please explain me what is the difference between a clip-art image on an article, and a picture of a painting made hundreds and hundreds of years after the actual event - both are not depicting the real stuff, are they? And there are more, Francium and many man-made chemical elements have never been isolated in significant quantities, there is only some physical data which points to their existence (or previous existence) .. so we can't write about that. No, Firsfron of Ronchester, we can very well write about subjects for which we do not have images available, and I think that 'A serious encyclopedia would never do this' defines es.wikikpedia.org as being not serious .. I hope they are not insulted by that. --Dirk Beetstra T C 06:59, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't care if they are insulted or not. Their use of clip art on their project in place of real images makes them not a serious project: knowing what to include in your encyclopedia and what not to include is important, and if you must decorate your articles with inappropriate clip art, it is clear there is a problem with your image use policy. I know you understand the fundamental difference between clip art that is used randomly (and inappropriately) to decorate an article in place of actual images, and the use of a painting actually created to illustrate the subject, or else you would not be working on tightening up English Wikipedia's image use policies. Firsfron of Ronchester 13:27, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I would certainly not suggest to randomly insert random clip-art (in those cases, having no image at all is better than that). But do note, that for many subjects, like the crucifixion of Jesus, we do not have 'the real stuff' available. Pictures (foto's) of 'subjects' only exist for the last 100-150 years (and in the beginning only used sparingly), before that, much of the images were drawn or depicted by eye witnesses. But if one goes further back (and even still now!) some images are simply not available, or not public (the pictures of the death of Osama Bin Laden?), or are of a type that one can not take a picture of the subject (advanced microscopy gets close, but we still can't take a picture of a molecule of Sildenafil). In many cases we either have to depend on representations/artist impresssions composed from the many stories about a subject (File:SVouet.jpg - note that the picture is made from the story, hence the story is good enough for making an image from it .. so there is technically no reason why we should here depict anything, the story is good enough to tell it all), or we make professional drawings representing a subject that we can not capture real pictures of (File:Sildenafil.svg, note that this is not much more than a professional form of clip-art .. though not generally applicable like clip-art ..).
- We have for most of the subjects a plethora of images available (the 'real stuff', artist impressions, self generated material), and for many others images can be made. Still, although having images there is of course the best thing ('an image says more than a thousand words'), in some cases we do not have any form of images, we can (yet) not depict it (but we can describe it) - I know that it is sometimes difficult to describe something without having the image (I am afraid that explaining how Sildenafil looks like without image is impossible, and using linear formulae ('InChI=1S/C22H30N6O4S.C6H8O7/c1-5-7-17-19-20(27(4)25-17)22(29)24-21(23-19)16-14-15(8-9-18(16)32-6-2)33(30,31)28-12-10-26(3)11-13-28;7-3(8)1-6(13,5(11)12)2-4(9)10/h8-9,14H,5-7,10-13H2,1-4H3,(H,23,24,29);13H,1-2H2,(H,7,8)(H,9,10)(H,11,12)' or 'O=S(=O)(N1CCN(C)CC1)c4cc(C\2=N\C(=O)c3c(N/2)c(nn3C)CCC)c(OCC)cc4.O=C(O)C(O)(CC(=O)O)CC(=O)O') is not helping either). But not using non-free images at all on Wikipedia is not making this encyclopedia a not-serious encyclopedia - it will not affect the majority of Wikipedia articles; I think that only affect a minor part of the articles (those which carry one or more non-free images), and even less do not have any other images on them - and there may be alternatives for some, and some can be reasonably described without having the non-free image there, some will not have proper image on Wikipedia but will link out to them. So I still believe that en.wikipedia, technically, could do without any non-free images (and if we were to make that choice, minimizing non-free use to the absolute minimum, then this wiki would certainly not instantly become a non-serious Wiki). And if there would be a will to minimize the current use and finding alternatives, we would already get quite far (imagine a scenario where the Foundation would just say 'OK, free is free, we now delete ALL non-free material' - a power they have - then I am sure that the community will a) maybe loose quite some interested users, but b) will quickly find alternatives and continue building this. Maybe the suggestion of minimizing the number of non-free images is just a matter of WP:IDONTLIKEIT?). --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:38, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- The German wiki does not allow any non-free images (with respect to German copyright law - there may be non-free images that are on en.wiki that are free images on de.wiki). This is an invalid claim. --MASEM (t) 01:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Foundation has deemed that some fair use images are acceptable. This viewpoint is essentially claiming that fair use should never be used, and is way beyond the scope of the original discussion. Jpatokal (talk) 06:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is not what I was saying, Jpatokal (see also my clarification), I was saying that it is very well possible to write without non-free media. I have not claimed here that fair use should never be used (though I would indeed not oppose the idea). --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Implicit in the question is some measure of quality. You can't build a normal-quality encyclopedia without non-free images. But you self-destructed this one by poor phrasing....it it "possible" to construct a (totally junk) encyclopedia from anything. Suggest you withdraw. North8000 (talk) 10:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- My wording was explicitly chosen without the measure of quality .. but what you (and above in support votes I see similar things), that if fair-use would not exist, Wikipedia would not be able to exist or to be meaningful. North8000, I am not saying that we go down the 'no non-free media'-lane, but it is pertinently untrue that all pages for which images are simply not available (and for which we have to do with alternatives) are by definition 'total junk'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm confused. But just to clarify one point on my post, I didn't say that articles without such were total junk. That phrase was a part of a hyperbolic example I gave, saying just an unqualified "possible" doesn't mean anything. In reality, the unnecessary portions of the exclusions are a detriment to development of a good encyclopedia; they do not make it impossible to develop an encyclopedia. North8000 (talk) 12:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I don't think that Wikipedia would be total junk if something like fair-use would not exist (and it does not exist in many countries) - though I agree that it would probably become less valuable, it certainly is not to the level of 'total junk' (we are not talking about 'no images at all', it is just the relatively small portion of non-free images). --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:16, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- Again, that is absolutely not what I said....I didn't say or even hint that lack of non-free images made it junk. Other tthan that mixup about what I said, I agree with you. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- My wording was explicitly chosen without the measure of quality .. but what you (and above in support votes I see similar things), that if fair-use would not exist, Wikipedia would not be able to exist or to be meaningful. North8000, I am not saying that we go down the 'no non-free media'-lane, but it is pertinently untrue that all pages for which images are simply not available (and for which we have to do with alternatives) are by definition 'total junk'. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Comment (Viewpoint 5)
- Really irrelevant to the discussion. Just plain overreaching. --Damiens.rf 15:25, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Overreaching in the aim of building a really free encyclopedia? --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- WP:FIVE, the most fundamental of all WP policies, states that fair use images may be used on the English Wikipedia. If you want to overturn that, you'll need a better forum that this RFC, which is about a far more limited topic. Jpatokal (talk) 06:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- See my clarification - I am talking about the possibility, that we can write without non-free media, just as we can write without images that simply don't exist. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Overreaching in the aim of building a really free encyclopedia? --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- So what? If you want en.wiki to contain no non-free content at all, then be upfront about your intent and put it to the community as a proposal, rather than keep pushing it as an all pervasive underlying agenda in Rfcs like this. It's sweeping statements like this that put some of the views above about 'how much is enough' into stark relief, when they aren't accompanied by any actual logical or intellectual point. And infact, the pointing out that even that decision of yes/no was left to local consensus at the German site, shows just how completely tendentious and unrepresentative these tedious invocations of the Foundation and the Mission are on this site in debates like this about the micro-interpretation of our NFCC criteria, as to wether we can use 2 or 20 or 200 images on currency articles. In the logic of some of the above comments, if 0 is the German interpretation of 'minimal', then we are destined for moral annihilation when it comes to Judgement Day. It's absurd. MickMacNee (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Guess what? That's exactly what the German WP uses. "Zero non-free images" is the absolute threshold of the Foundations' request to keep things minimal. Mind you, I don't see consensus anywhere close to requiring the same on en.wiki, (even I don't think it wise to absolish all non-free media) , but we have to recognize that zero non-free media is a workable solution in other wikis. --MASEM (t) 15:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See my clarification - I am not advocating here that I want en.wiki to contain no non-free content at all. 0 is indeed also a minimal use. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Viewpoint 6: The use of one example of a front/back set for a bill or coin and text descriptions for all other currency in the same series serves the same encyclopedic and educational purposes as the use of an image of every front/back set for that series
Support (Viewpoint 6)
- As nominator. This follows directly from the Foundation's resolution that states. Any content used under an EDP must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose. Note that this is not saying no images can be used, but that we restrict ourselves to a representative same, and explain through text how the other bills or coins vary in illustration, text, color, and the like. As we are not a travel or currency guide, the use of example images + text serves the same purpose for the encyclopedia as the use of every image of the bills/coins. --MASEM (t) 21:04, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose (Viewpoint 6)
Comments (Viewpoint 6)
- If you're willing to concede that the banknote articles need at least one nonfree image, but the purported problem is the absolute number of non-free files somehow imposing a burden on downstream users who have to filter them out, then combine the banknote variants all into one gridded image so that way there is still only one non-free file in the article code to filter out. Or is there some other practical concern that I'm missing? postdlf (talk) 21:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- If you, the user, created that image (regardless if you scanned them all together, or stitched the images together into one image), that image counts as X non-free images for each the X images used to create it, because each piece of illustrate is a new image; that is, your work is a derivative work of X other free images. So the problem is not alleviated. Now, on the other hand, if the bank or government itself created a single image of the currency which they own the copyright on, they have have created a derivative work that only counts as one instance of a non-free file for our purposes. This solution is certainly an accepted solution if such images exists. --MASEM (t) 22:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- "[t]hat image counts as X non-free images" — for what practical purpose are we counting, and what is the concrete difference or impact between X and X+1? Assuming of course that the use is legal, whatever the number. postdlf (talk) 22:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, the counting reflects "minimal" use, and while its hard to explain the difference between X and X+1 use, the rational that if X+1 images are ok if X is can be replied indefinitely over to say that X+Y images are ok if X images are ok - obviously an exaggeration. We have to look at the case different between 2 non-free images (+ text differences) and 12-20 non-free images, even if all of those are contained in single-user created montage. --MASEM (t) 22:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- Without any discussion of actual impact or consequences, however, we have nothing to guide us as to what "minimal" does or should mean. So what is the actual consequence of an article having two nonfree but legally used images instead of one nonfree but legally used image? postdlf (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- We do have guidance - replacement of non-free by a free equivalent (which doesn't have to be an image) per the Foundation. If, to talk about a series of six bills, I can take out 10 non-frees (front/back) and replace with a text description of what they look like, leaving just 2 non-frees behind as illustrative examples, I've met the requirements of the Foundation, working on the assumption that these two cases serve similar purposes. Now, the extreme case, removing all non-free images and only describing in text on the bill and using 0 non-free, I would argue that the non-illustrative situation is not an encyclopedic equivalent of the 12 image case or the 2 image case because we have no idea of how those elements are arranged on the bills, their relative predominance and weight, and the like.
- Now, if you're talking about the montage, part of this is from fair use law, since each reuse is a single instance of fair use. As fair use law is weighted on how many uses are evoked, we would rather use a single image from the copyright owner that illustrates X instances compared to using X images from the copyright owner showing individual elements. --MASEM (t) 22:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that's what's a large part of what's being disagreed about: whether or not text is sufficient to describe the variation. I'm trying to pin down whether there is any compelling reason to err on the side of replaceability in this case: whether there is any substantive policy concern (i.e., concrete consequence) that would put a thumb down on one side of the scale. As I said, I was assuming the legality of WP's use for purposes of my question, particularly since in many (most?) cases fair use isn't even relevant to the banknote usage because non-commercial use is permitted (and given that the first and fourth fair use factors heavily support WP's use of the bank note images for educational identification and comparison, the fourth perhaps being the most important factor in most cases, the third much less so).
So if legality of use is not a concern, what is the concrete effect, and upon whom or what, of having X+1 instead of X nonfree images in a banknote article? postdlf (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- We can't treat different types of non-free with different weights. "Non-commercial reuse" means that while we liekly won't be sued for using all the images, it burdens the work with more non-free. And the Foundation wants us to use X, if not X-1 or fewer, instead of X+1 non-free images if we can, even if we're likely not going to get into legal trouble for using X+1 images. That's the difficulty with thinking it from a fair use concept because we're looking at it from the Foundation's mission which approaches the concept from the other direction. The Foundation would love for us to use zero non-frees, but recognizes limited exceptions are made. This is why, in list and table style articles, non-frees are generally not appropriate since these do not make for limited exceptions when each element is illustrated. And that's why we have to gauge what the educational and encyclopedic value is of the two cases on the table: "use all front/back images" and "use one front/back set of representative images". I postulate they're the same, given that we're not an end-all, be-all guide to world currency. Others may disagree but this is the core issue here. If consensus agrees that there is more educational value for all the images to be shown, then reducing the number of images is not an equivalent replacement, and we go with using them all. And similarly for the case if consensus agrees they are equivalent. --MASEM (t) 15:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- You're still not answering my question. If legality is not an issue, what does it mean in the context of bank note articles, to "burden the work with more non-free"? What is that "burden" in concrete terms? postdlf (talk) 15:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- The burden is on the free content mission of the Foundation. More images mean more non-free content against the Foundation's goals, even though we've already "tainted" it. (WP:VEGAN). This is why the Resolution specifically talks about minimizing non-free works. It is entirely philosophical, as you are absolutely right there's no legal or monetary issues at play here, but it is something the Foundation has charged us with attempted to do whereever we can. --MASEM (t) 16:14, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- If it's "entirely philosophical" then it can't really be called a burden on the mission then, can it? The mission is to create encyclopedia content that is as free as we can make it, but not as an end in itself so we can all pat ourselves on the back. The point of that mission is so that downstream users have as much freedom as possible to reuse it, correct? That's the concrete benefit that the mission is supposed to accomplish. And so if downstream users are not burdened more by a particular article containing two nonfree images than by an article containing one nonfree image, then the mission is not burdened by that second nonfree image. Which is why I suggested combining nonfree images into one file. It is harder for a downstream user to filter out of an article's code an annotated wikimarkup table consisting of multiple nonfree files than it is for a downstream user to filter out one nonfree file that is an image of the exact same table, correct? And outside of that consequence for downstream users, if legality is not an issue and there is no replaceability issue for the displacement of free images by nonfree, I fail to see how the free content mission is burdened by a bank note article containing multiple nonfree images instead of one nonfree image. postdlf (talk) 16:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- It still doesn't matter to the Foundation. They want a work anyone, non-profit to commercial, can redistribute with a freedom to build on that. A montage created by a user is a set of X derivative works that the redistributing user is now encompassed by. If that user is an academic, and the original images were under a non-commercial license, hey good for them. But the commercial user is screwed. He's still screwed in the case of using 2 images over 12-20, but that's now much less of a problem when it comes to fair use for themselves. Free content avoids those problems in the first place. --MASEM (t) 18:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- If it's "entirely philosophical" then it can't really be called a burden on the mission then, can it? The mission is to create encyclopedia content that is as free as we can make it, but not as an end in itself so we can all pat ourselves on the back. The point of that mission is so that downstream users have as much freedom as possible to reuse it, correct? That's the concrete benefit that the mission is supposed to accomplish. And so if downstream users are not burdened more by a particular article containing two nonfree images than by an article containing one nonfree image, then the mission is not burdened by that second nonfree image. Which is why I suggested combining nonfree images into one file. It is harder for a downstream user to filter out of an article's code an annotated wikimarkup table consisting of multiple nonfree files than it is for a downstream user to filter out one nonfree file that is an image of the exact same table, correct? And outside of that consequence for downstream users, if legality is not an issue and there is no replaceability issue for the displacement of free images by nonfree, I fail to see how the free content mission is burdened by a bank note article containing multiple nonfree images instead of one nonfree image. postdlf (talk) 16:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- The burden is on the free content mission of the Foundation. More images mean more non-free content against the Foundation's goals, even though we've already "tainted" it. (WP:VEGAN). This is why the Resolution specifically talks about minimizing non-free works. It is entirely philosophical, as you are absolutely right there's no legal or monetary issues at play here, but it is something the Foundation has charged us with attempted to do whereever we can. --MASEM (t) 16:14, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- You're still not answering my question. If legality is not an issue, what does it mean in the context of bank note articles, to "burden the work with more non-free"? What is that "burden" in concrete terms? postdlf (talk) 15:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- We can't treat different types of non-free with different weights. "Non-commercial reuse" means that while we liekly won't be sued for using all the images, it burdens the work with more non-free. And the Foundation wants us to use X, if not X-1 or fewer, instead of X+1 non-free images if we can, even if we're likely not going to get into legal trouble for using X+1 images. That's the difficulty with thinking it from a fair use concept because we're looking at it from the Foundation's mission which approaches the concept from the other direction. The Foundation would love for us to use zero non-frees, but recognizes limited exceptions are made. This is why, in list and table style articles, non-frees are generally not appropriate since these do not make for limited exceptions when each element is illustrated. And that's why we have to gauge what the educational and encyclopedic value is of the two cases on the table: "use all front/back images" and "use one front/back set of representative images". I postulate they're the same, given that we're not an end-all, be-all guide to world currency. Others may disagree but this is the core issue here. If consensus agrees that there is more educational value for all the images to be shown, then reducing the number of images is not an equivalent replacement, and we go with using them all. And similarly for the case if consensus agrees they are equivalent. --MASEM (t) 15:43, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that's what's a large part of what's being disagreed about: whether or not text is sufficient to describe the variation. I'm trying to pin down whether there is any compelling reason to err on the side of replaceability in this case: whether there is any substantive policy concern (i.e., concrete consequence) that would put a thumb down on one side of the scale. As I said, I was assuming the legality of WP's use for purposes of my question, particularly since in many (most?) cases fair use isn't even relevant to the banknote usage because non-commercial use is permitted (and given that the first and fourth fair use factors heavily support WP's use of the bank note images for educational identification and comparison, the fourth perhaps being the most important factor in most cases, the third much less so).
- Without any discussion of actual impact or consequences, however, we have nothing to guide us as to what "minimal" does or should mean. So what is the actual consequence of an article having two nonfree but legally used images instead of one nonfree but legally used image? postdlf (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, the counting reflects "minimal" use, and while its hard to explain the difference between X and X+1 use, the rational that if X+1 images are ok if X is can be replied indefinitely over to say that X+Y images are ok if X images are ok - obviously an exaggeration. We have to look at the case different between 2 non-free images (+ text differences) and 12-20 non-free images, even if all of those are contained in single-user created montage. --MASEM (t) 22:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- "[t]hat image counts as X non-free images" — for what practical purpose are we counting, and what is the concrete difference or impact between X and X+1? Assuming of course that the use is legal, whatever the number. postdlf (talk) 22:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- If you, the user, created that image (regardless if you scanned them all together, or stitched the images together into one image), that image counts as X non-free images for each the X images used to create it, because each piece of illustrate is a new image; that is, your work is a derivative work of X other free images. So the problem is not alleviated. Now, on the other hand, if the bank or government itself created a single image of the currency which they own the copyright on, they have have created a derivative work that only counts as one instance of a non-free file for our purposes. This solution is certainly an accepted solution if such images exists. --MASEM (t) 22:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
...and again, given that we're talking about an article that either way is going to have at least one file representing a nonfree image, there's no difference there to the downstream user, whether commercial or not, if that one file represents one nonfree image or five nonfree images. Either way it's the same "burden" of removing the article code for one file. Or by saying "the commercial user is screwed" do you mean something other than "the commercial user has to remove the nonfree content from the article before he can reuse it"? postdlf (talk) 18:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- A montage image created by an entity other than the copyright holder or an agency of them is considered, by copyright law, a derivative image containing X reuses of someone else's copyright, plus the copyright of the person assembling the image. Thus, if the end user, a commercial entity, uses a WP-editor creator montage of X images with those original images under non-commercial reuse allowances, the end user is using X images from the original copyright owner. As copyright and fair use consider the number of uses as part of the determine if the use is truly fair use or commercial violation, the montage poses the same exact risk to this user as if they used the individual X images. Reducing that to 2 images from 12-20 doesn't clear them, but certainly solidifies a fair use defense for them. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- Masem, you're just going in circles now. We were talking about an end commercial user who can't use nonfree content that WP can, and so has to filter it out before he can reuse a WP article, so I don't know why you're now analyzing whether that end user can use the nonfree content. Which is why I suggested in the first place that we combine multiple nonfree images in one single nonfree file, to aid in that filtering out, so that the end user only has to remove the code for one nonfree file from a WP article instead of five or ten. Maybe you've been talking about something else all this time, but that's what I've been talking about. And I've been trying to ask if there's another concrete burden that nonfree content poses on an end user other than his having to remove that code to remove the nonfree content. postdlf (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm talking the case where the commercial reuser is not filtering out images. (And it is worth remembering that one requirement for NFC is that they are significantly important to understanding an article that removing them will be detrimental to that understanding). Regardless of all this, at the end of the day, it is still our responsibility to minimize non-free use per the Foundation, even if all it does is give us a warm fuzzy feeling - we still need to take whatever steps we can to minimize it. That's not saying there's no room for consensus here (And why I specifically ask the question about if this is an equivalent replacement), but there are things like non-free montages that immediately are problems against minimization as defined by the Foundation. Montages have been discussed here on WT:NFC several times in the past, so this is not a novel invention here. --MASEM (t) 14:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- And if we don't analyze what actual impact nonfree content has, we can't effectively decide how best to minimize it apart from the "use it/don't use it" binary that most people get unfortunately stuck with here. If there actually are steps we can take to minimize the burden that nonfree content has on downstream users, we should take them, and if there is a concrete burden involved in a particular use of nonfree content then that should be weighed against the argued encyclopedic value of using that nonfree content, but you don't seem interested in that question, or you're not understanding it. As far as copyright law is concerned, it doesn't matter whether we render multiple images in an article from separate files or one file if the use is the same either way (particularly when you imagine an article being printed out), so all your talk about "montages" is irrelevant here. Seriously, Masem, you're just wasting time at this point. I'm going to put you down for "I don't know" as the answer to the question I asked in the first place. postdlf (talk) 14:26, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- I've answered it, but you're trying to work around it. A montage of X images is a derivative work and equivalent from a copyright standpoint to using X separate images. There is no change in burden to downstream users if we use X separate images or a montage image we created ourselves of those X images: they still have to figure out how to deal with X reuses of copyright. The case where the copyright owner themselves created that montage image does create an image that only involves one copyright instead of X. Importantly, this is a statement of fact that's a completely separate point from the subjective minimization of non-free content. Montaging a set of images that are not under your copyright does not change any factors of copyright with respect to the original images.
- Now as to minimization, we go back to the question: is the use of a subset of the images as visual examples alongside text descriptions of the rest educationally and encyclopedically equivalent to either the case of X images of the entire set, or a user-created montage of X images of the entire set? This this the core issue of my viewpoint - the idea if the images were in a user-created montage or not is a red herring since it doesn't change end copyright issues. --MASEM (t) 14:44, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- "...it doesn't change end copyright issues": I already said this above ("As far as copyright law is concerned, it doesn't matter..."), so if you were using your "core issue" as a counter to my point, then with all due respect you're not really reading what I'm writing. The point of combining images in one file would be, and only would be, to make it easier for those end users who need to remove nonfree content. Obviously it wouldn't change anything for end users who don't want to remove nonfree content. postdlf (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- As long as that you are aware that editors are still to judge the user-created montage as equivalent to X images in determining if there is an equivalent free-er replacement, then yes, that's correct. That is, if in this present discussion the consensus says the illustration of each currency is necessary for its understanding, a montage would be an acceptable way of presenting those images. --MASEM (t) 15:28, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Consensus can not override this issue
I want to take the opportunity now, when at this point in time support for liberal inclusion of the non-free images is low, to point out a couple of points contrary to those wishing for liberal inclusion. Let me be clear; I have no objection to the RfC, else I would not have contributed to it above. But, the following needs to be stated, regardless of the outcome of the RfC.
Consensus is a powerful tool. Indeed, it is "Wikipedia's fundamental model" to our processes here. From that we see "Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding". The problem is, that is not the case here. The Foundation has taken a stance on this issue. It is not a consensus decision. See Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, specifically point #3 where it says that non-free content use must be minimal. Also see the first line of that resolution where it says "The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects. " (emphasis mine) It is important to understand that even if 1000 Wikipedia editors all agreed that it was permissible to use 200 non-free images on an article, such a "consensus" would not be acceptable under the Foundation's dictum on the matter. We must keep non-free usage minimal and observe the "narrow limits" in which non-free content is allowed.
I understand and readily acknowledge that certain people wishing to allow liberal inclusion will rail against this, cast aspersions about people against liberal inclusion making themselves final arbiters, and claims that in order to be encyclopedic we have to be comprehensive, even when it comes to non-free content issues. I recognize that a large number of people have complained about non-free image removal across a variety of article types (discographies, episode lists, media station logos, bibliographies, sports series, and others). I would venture to guess that the number of people who have complained is easily ten times the number of people who have supported removal. But, in every case the removals have stood.
There is a reason for that. It is because the free content mission is more fundamental to the project than any other policy, guideline, essay, or opinion. We can and should permit non-free usage where it is imperative, as per the resolution linked above. But liberal inclusion of non-free images has never been and never will be within the scope of the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody has to rail against it. They just have to ask you where the Foundation has authorised you to act as their official spokesperson and final judge of what is and is not "minimal usage" to be able to credibly make the sort of declarations as you have just done above? Explain by what mechanism this concept is actualy defined on local projects, if not by consensus? It bears repeating every single time, that for someone who likes to invoke the name of the Foundation so much on this issue as you do, to the nth degree & in complete and utter contempt of WP:TE, that the Foundation has never once declared any support whatsoever for your interpretation of what is and is not minimal use. Not once. Never. Which is odd, if it's not a matter for consensus. The Foundation have spoken out many times on other issues of legal implication policy which might in their eyes be being circumvented on local projects - child protection, BLP, explicit images, etc, etc, etc. Yet not this. Not once has anyone ever invoked OFFICE to remove instances of gross non-free image over use (and you're surely not going to now deny that you've been working on the assumption that all of these latest cases have been instances of gross violations?). Not once. Not ever. The unpalatable truth where you're concerned is that defining "minimal use" very much is a matter for local projects, and local projects work on consensus. Deal with it already. Or run for a seat on the board. Do anything except continue banging this drum everywhere and anywhere as if it were remotely true. As ever, I expect absolutely no reply from you on the substanive points made herein - WP:TE. MickMacNee (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I got as far as "authorised you to act..." and stopped. I've already responded to that preemptively, and see no reason to continue reading yet another assault upon me by you. You are of course welcome to another platform on which to voice your negative opinion of me. Please by all means feel free to continue. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- As I predicted. A classic sign of a WP:TE - 'I need not respond to criticims of my views or interpretations of policy if I deem them to be an attack on my person.' It's just a shame that policy disagrees with this all to frequent tactic of yours. MickMacNee (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I see no compelling reason to respond to personal assaults upon me. Feel free to predict that I will continue as I have. You're absolutely correct. If this counts as tendentious editing by you, so be it. It's not a concern to me. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 17:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. Another classic TE sign - respond with what you want the person to have said rather than what they actually said. Oh noes! Is this yet another attack on your person? Somebody stop me! I'm clearly out of control. Just grow up Hammersoft (oops, another one!). You can choose to ignore whoever you want on whatever grounds you like, whether it looks justified or just childish and deliberate evasion is down to others to call, and whether it justifies you continuing to make posts like the one above about the Foundation and consenus in a clear attempt to deceive other editors, and particulalry when you know full well it's been objected to, well that's eventually going to have to be a decision for administrators, because it's TE whether you like it or not. MickMacNee (talk) 17:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I also stopped exactly at "authorised you to act" and went on to read the reply, just to find out I was not alone on that. That is a very weak line of argumentation, MickMacNee. Please, attack the real arguments instead of fictitious one you created yourself (assuming you're really interested in the issue being discussed more that in the discussion itself). --Damiens.rf 17:56, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- As above, you, and he, are free to ignore whatever you want, for whatever reasons you like, just don't then claim others didn't challenge your logic, or that you weren't warned when you are inevitably sanctioned for tendentious repetition of an argument you are unwilling to defend, but unable to stop repeating, in an attempt to disrupt & distort the consensus building process. He made his point at length, he even set aside an entire section for it complete with a header asserting Consensus can not override this issue. I've attacked the case he made directly. He's not replied, and in all honesty, I can't blame him either, if I was in his shoes I wouldn't know how to counter my rebuttal either, faced as he is with some pretty awkward basic facts. But he is as we speak, having absolved himself of the need to defend this position here, making the same case repeatedly, making editors think they are going against the Foundation resolution for simply expressing their own views on what is and isn't minimal use. This is tendentious editting, pure and simple. MickMacNee (talk) 19:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Please feel free to report me to whatever noticeboard you feel appropriate for whatever behaviors you think I have engaged in that are negative to the project. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Feel free not to keep reminding me what I'm free to do, and have told you repeated that I am well aware of. Or, if you want to show even more how you're a TE, then carry on telling established editors this sort of thing. MickMacNee (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the invite. I will when you decide to post more about your negative opinion of me. Just wondering when you expect to provide diffs? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I posted a diff at 19.41. Did you miss it perchance? I'm losing track here of what you are intentionally ignoring as a tactic, and what you just generally ignore anyway. MickMacNee (talk) 01:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Consensus cannot override core policies and missions, but it is needed to determine how they are applied in practice. The answer to the question presented here, whether certain uses of certain images are compatible with NFCC8 because they are required for the reader's understanding, is not evident from the text of the policies, but needs to be determined through editorial judgment. And in the absence of a special authority empowered to decide this question, and in the absence of a decision by Foundation authorities, consensus is the only model by which we can arrive at a meaningful decision about how to apply NFCC8 to this case. Sandstein 18:20, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Of course. But equally obvious is that we can not erode the Foundation's stance on the minimal use of non-free content requirement. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Who's eroding it? Sandstein has just laid it out perfectly. What constitutes minimal use is a matter for consensus, ergo, the judgement of whether it's being eroded is too. Unless of course, the Foundation disagrees and steps in, as it has done elsewhere in real cases of erosion/subversion. MickMacNee (talk) 19:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Such as? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See the post you elected to ignore. This is what happens when you don't pay attention to others, you miss out crucial details. MickMacNee (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- And still ignored. This is what happens when you decide to use the methods you continue to choose. Could you please answer the question without couching it within a personal assault? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See the post above that you elected to ignore. That's what I said the last time. That's what I'll say the next time. That's what I'll say forever more, until you grow the fuck up. Oops. Another personal assault. Dammit. MickMacNee (talk) 01:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Dude, just make your point and ask a question. You don't need swear or tell people to grow up. Whether or not you view his actions as churlish is irrelevant. — BQZip01 — talk 04:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- See the post above that you elected to ignore. That's what I said the last time. That's what I'll say the next time. That's what I'll say forever more, until you grow the fuck up. Oops. Another personal assault. Dammit. MickMacNee (talk) 01:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- MickMacNee, please be advised that, since you have said something negative about HS in the past, your opinions are apparently irrelevant to him (Please note that HE created this page, not me). HS, by ignoring him, you are ignoring debate. You are effectively yelling and screaming over your opponent and ignoring any insight; that's fillibustering, not a discussion. — BQZip01 — talk 23:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- And still ignored. This is what happens when you decide to use the methods you continue to choose. Could you please answer the question without couching it within a personal assault? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- See the post you elected to ignore. This is what happens when you don't pay attention to others, you miss out crucial details. MickMacNee (talk) 20:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Such as? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Who's eroding it? Sandstein has just laid it out perfectly. What constitutes minimal use is a matter for consensus, ergo, the judgement of whether it's being eroded is too. Unless of course, the Foundation disagrees and steps in, as it has done elsewhere in real cases of erosion/subversion. MickMacNee (talk) 19:41, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- MickMacNee hid the head of the nail with this one, HS. Consensus indeed cannot override policy, but it can decide on application of policy. In this case, consensus can decide what "minimal" means. — BQZip01 — talk 23:02, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's swell. Now somebody tell me WHY currency illustrations are regarded as "non-free images" when every numismatic catalog and every numismatic periodical in the world uses them regularly... Carrite (talk) 00:04, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- We are talking "free" as in speech, not as in beer. Certainly the images are "free" as in beer and zero-cost to obtain, but that's not the concern. In several countries the artwork on the images has a copyright held by the artist, the government, or some other entity. As long as they hold copyright, these images cannot be easily redistributed with free content used by Wikipedia under the CC-BY family of open licenses. Thus we have to treat them as "non-free", and apply strict requirements to their use per the Foundation. --MASEM (t) 00:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- Note that the images being considered under Viewpoint 1 at least can be redistributed as widely and as easily as their corresponding CC-BY content. Jheald (talk) 00:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- We are talking "free" as in speech, not as in beer. Certainly the images are "free" as in beer and zero-cost to obtain, but that's not the concern. In several countries the artwork on the images has a copyright held by the artist, the government, or some other entity. As long as they hold copyright, these images cannot be easily redistributed with free content used by Wikipedia under the CC-BY family of open licenses. Thus we have to treat them as "non-free", and apply strict requirements to their use per the Foundation. --MASEM (t) 00:13, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's swell. Now somebody tell me WHY currency illustrations are regarded as "non-free images" when every numismatic catalog and every numismatic periodical in the world uses them regularly... Carrite (talk) 00:04, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
- And I'm talking about dumb as in ridiculous and not dumb as in unable to speak in the 19th Century. If there are countries which treat currency art under copyright, treat those differently from the vast majority that do not. This looks like another Willy Nilly Group Freakout over nothing... What's the problem here, other than somebody got a bee up his butt to make an issue out of a non-issue??? These same images are used in numismatic catalogs around the globe. Wanna borrow my Krause??? Carrite (talk) 06:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- That is not the point, Carrite. The m:Mission here is to build a free encyclopedia, if we have those images on Wikipedia, then Wikipedia is NOT (completely) free. The mission of Krause or other numismatic catalogues does not have to be that they are free in that context, and they can carry the work. The Foundation wants us to minimise the use of non-free images, and, unfortunately, that includes pictures of banknotes (which are not free). What others do is not the concern here. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
The question isn't whether or not Wikipedia should minimize non-free images, it's what "minimize" means. Obviously all non-free images could be ditched, but there are cases were content would suffer significantly and so "minimize" admits that exceptions exist. The question is whether or not the currency images fall into the range of those exceptions Jztinfinity (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- I oppose the wholesale and wanton deletion of large numbers of images of coins and banknotes. Certain users seem to have taken it upon themselves as some kind of mission to delete as many of these as they possibly can, thereby ruining goodness knows how many articles. Most of these articles have been happily existing for years -- doing nobody any harm, and garnering no complaints from any external parties, as far as I am aware. It is a great shame. If only the people in question had instead decided to do something useful with their time at Wikipedia... 86.176.212.96 (talk) 14:09, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Wanton? Hardly. Decidedly specific. What you would call useless editing, others call central to the success of the project. I can just as well say that it's a great shame that so many people think that liberal inclusion of non-free content to the fullest extent of the law is the best way forward. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- This endless petty back-and-forth that flare up are detrimental to the encyclopedia. You kids cut it out or I swear I'll pull this car over right here! Now that that is out of the way... There seems to be some fundemental issues here, in that editors who oppose a stance on some individual cases (or even on larger, more generic cases) clearly also feel as though they are following the Foundation's policy. Can we all accept that interpretation of the policy does vary, and thus that consensus on what contitutes "minimal" may in fact be determined locally, and that this does not contitute an "erosion"? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 05:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Is this policy change acceptable?
diff -- Avanu (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "portal templates", but use in a navigational template would almost invariably violate NFCC#8. Navigational templates don't really convey encyclopedic content, so they are never in need of encyclopedic illustration. Also, use in any template is always problematic because the author of the template typically has no control over how many pages the template will end up on, which means that the requirement of individual justification (i.e. rationales) for each page will be difficult to enforce. In general, use in templates will lead to uncontrolled and indiscriminate use, so, all in all, no, I don't think this is acceptable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not! Please do not make major unilateral changes to policies with serious legal implications. Your change completely ignores the fundamental principle here - that non-free content must only be used for the purpose of commentary and analysis. Templates and portal pages are not commentary or analysis. It's been a long-standing policy that non-free content must only be used in article space and only in articles. This, by the way, is an attempt by Avanu to change a policy in order to win an argument at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Cirt#Wikiproject Scientology and Scientology Portal symbol. When I pointed out that NFCC #9 prohibits what he is advocating, he came here to unilaterally change it. That is not acceptable at all. Prioryman (talk) 19:29, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- And if consensus supported it, the argument would be over there, yes? I'm not interesting in 'winning' so much as seeing a silly debate get a quick fix. (and you should know better than to say stuff like 'unilaterally', we all know Wikipedia works by consensus, sheesh) -- Avanu (talk) 19:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, no harm done then, but let's put it to rest, this change most definitely isn't going to fly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:36, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Unilaterally" because you made a major change to a live and in-force policy without discussing it first. That is a very bad idea. NFCC #9 says categorically that NFCC may only be used in articles and in article space. You're free to disagree with that and advocate a change, but you're not free to unilaterally impose your own view on a policy. I'd remind you also that this particular policy is not determined by consensus but by what external forces - i.e. copyright law and the Wikimedia Foundation's own policies - require. Prioryman (talk) 19:37, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- No, actually the Foundation requires to limit the use of non-frees to mainspace articles; just because the results of templates or portals may appear in mainspace, does not mean images used within them are appropriate. It is also very inappropriate to change policy pages without seeking consensus to put an end to a niche discussion. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- And if consensus supported it, the argument would be over there, yes? I'm not interesting in 'winning' so much as seeing a silly debate get a quick fix. (and you should know better than to say stuff like 'unilaterally', we all know Wikipedia works by consensus, sheesh) -- Avanu (talk) 19:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- If people had thought it acceptable, then we wouldn't have an argument anymore. The thing that gets me, is if a Template is only included into mainspace articles, then we're really just making what could have been a pain to include on 100 pages, a simpler task. So, the question, which I think Future Perfect somewhat answered, is why make an arbitrary distinction when it is merely a mechanical operation? Maybe there is a way to write a template, lock it down, and it will only show its contents in Mainspace. Problem solved. -- Avanu (talk) 19:43, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- No, that wouldn't work either. If you are using non-free images, their use must meet all 10 points of WP:NFCC. Even if you hand-wrote the template code to each article that would use it, no longer being a template, using a non-free image next to a bunch of internal links is not an acceptable use of non-free images. It is unfortunate that unlike most other major religions where their symbols are in the public domain that Scientology's is not, but this is not a factor for non-free content determined by the Foundation. You can use that symbol on the main page about Scientology, as it would be equivalent to a logo, but almost nowhere else. --MASEM (t) 19:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) It is almost inconceivable that there would ever be a situation where a non-free image could legitimately pass NFCC#8 "on 100 pages". How often are you going to repeat a valid, non-trivial, well-sourced piece of encyclopedic information about that poor little image? If it's to be used in more than two or three pages, it's almost certainly going to be purely decorative in most of them. – Now, playing devil's advocate for a moment, there are a few instances where people have created templates that are really just made for one or two mainspace articles. For instance, some articles have heavy infobox code factored out into a one-use-only "template". Now, people might disagree whether this is ever a good idea, for independent reasons (probably it isn't), but if we assume for the moment that such one-off templates might have sensible uses, and one of them badly needed a non-free image, I could see that being allowable under IAR, sort of. – The technical trick of deactivating the display of the image when not being viewed transcluded would actually be feasible, technically, using "includeonly" tags. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:53, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to tag that a big maaaaybe, but we need to be clear to the point here: reusing a non-free image as a decoration for a navigational aid across 100 articles is not going to happen, within a template or not. --MASEM (t) 20:00, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- As a user interface designer, I can readily see how consistency in imagery and placement helps with comprehension and can "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic". Bad design makes life harder. But aesthetic concerns might not meet some people's definition of 'significant'. -- Avanu (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- While this proposal appears rather rational, it's inconsistent with the fundamental principle, implementing Foundation policy, that every use of a nonfree image must be justified by an NFCC rationale specific for each individual article in which it is used. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
There's an additional reason why this proposed change is problematic: Small-scale content re-users. Standard practice for me and others I used to work with when re-using WP content, would be to find a suitable article, save a temporary copy and use the WP interface to remove any non-free content (95% of non-free content is not as "essential" as is sometimes insisted) before printing or saving locally (as PDF nowadays). Already, the presence of non-free content requires presents a barrier to re-use, by necessitating a basic understanding of wiki-syntax; placing non-free content in a template would make the process of removal for re-use an order of magnitude more difficult. CIreland (talk) 16:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
"Rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance"
So I've got a user who's uploading fair-use images of country singers. It's my understanding that we generally can't put fair-use images up, but there's that whole "rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance" thing. Where do we draw the line? Here's a look at a few images uploaded by Canadaolympic989 (talk · contribs):
- David Lee Murphy and Rhett Akins — Singer hasn't had a release in 7 years, but still sporadically writes for others. Both certainly look much older than in their hitmaking days. Would these fall under "earlier visual appearance" since their biggest hits came in 1995?
- Mark Collie — Again, hasn't had a hit in 16 years, and is still alive but has an almost nonexistant touring schedule. Again, would "rests in large part on earlier visual appearance" apply here, since he's bound to look much older now?
- Nitty Gritty Dirt Band — Four of the five people in the image still tour together as the NGDB, but I'm betting they all look about 25 years older. Also, they had their biggest hits when the missing guy was still in the band.
- James Bonamy — Singer is confirmed as retired from the genre. I've contacted people who know him via YouTube, and found that Bonamy has pretty much disowned his musical career.
The only one I'm certain on being an acceptable fair use is Bonamy, so I'd like feedback on the others. I have every reason to think there's virtually no chance of getting a free image of any of them, or at least one wherein they look the same as they did in their hitmaking days (particularly Rhett, who was much younger looking and didn't have the facial hair he does now). Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 21:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would argue that in the case of most musical artists that are still alive that their visual appearance is really not necessarily to understanding the article on the person, even if the person is retired or the group only exists in a partial form. There would be isolated cases (for example, Weird Al Yankovic's pre-LASIK look is historically iconic from how he looks today, despite us having plenty of free photos of him to use, or if the band KISS retired and we never had their stage performance look in makeup and leather in a free photo). But these are country singers and they generally do not have a significant visual component to them, so barring exceptional reasons like the above cases, I would agree that non-free images are not appropriate. --MASEM (t) 22:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- My question though is, do you think all of the examples I gave fit? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 00:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Your instincts are right, but you haven't taken them far enough. I don't think any of these images qualify under the NFCC standards. We had a parallel discussion (just about a three-ring circus, actually) about Japanese porn performers last year, and the consensus was that NFCC wasn't met, even though the performers were long-retired and withdrawn from public view. (Example [5]) For musicians, it's very hard to make the case that notability "rests in large part" on their appearance rather than their music, and absent well-sourced text in the articles documenting the primary importance of their appearance to their careers, all of the nonfree images should be summarily removed. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think that at least the last two are fine, and would suggest waiting for further consensus before removing the images in question. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 05:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Your instincts are right, but you haven't taken them far enough. I don't think any of these images qualify under the NFCC standards. We had a parallel discussion (just about a three-ring circus, actually) about Japanese porn performers last year, and the consensus was that NFCC wasn't met, even though the performers were long-retired and withdrawn from public view. (Example [5]) For musicians, it's very hard to make the case that notability "rests in large part" on their appearance rather than their music, and absent well-sourced text in the articles documenting the primary importance of their appearance to their careers, all of the nonfree images should be summarily removed. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- My question though is, do you think all of the examples I gave fit? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 00:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Gentlemen. While you are both headed in the right direction, I think you both fall short of the mark. Hullaballoo's statement implies, "Who cares what a country singer looks like?"
Insults and general WP:NPA violations redacted
|
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The answer, of course, being no one, and so these images should be deleted. The more important question, however, is: Who cares what a country singer sounds like? Again, obviously, no one-- at least no one who matters. Since these articles are propped up by the supposed notability of their subjects'... um... singing-- which can easily be established as non-notable, given that no one with even a whit of musical understanding would listen to it-- they should all be deleted. I'm serious: The only country singers who deserve articles at Wikipedia are Johnny Cash and Burl Ives... Or was Burl Ives country?.. Either way, he and Cash can stay (without images, of course), the rest need to go. If I might be permitted a minor digression by way of illustration of the problem articles on non-notable subjects like this pose Wikipedia: Not long ago I had to start articles on several Rimsky-Korsakov operas. Now, I don't need to tell you, Rimsky-Korsakov's operas are the crowning achievement of the oeuvre of this Russian master, yet we had no articles on them until I started these pathetic stubs. What did we have instead? Articles on these fucking country clowns! It makes me sick to my stomach to even think about it. No, gentlemen. We should all be working towards improving Wikipedia's reputation, not dragging it down into the mud and the gutter with some whiskey-soaked shit-kickers singing about beating their wives and they're so lonesome since their dogs ran away, and oh, how great the U.S. of A is, and all that drivel. I realise this is the project for the deletion of images, but someone really should bring this problem to the attention of the appropriate project for the deletion of articles. For the good of Wikipedia, please delete this aural excrement. They're all potential BLP violations anyway. |
Have a nice day. Dekkappai (talk) 03:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Wow, WP:TLDR, WP:NPA and completely inaccurate stereotypes in one filibuster (there have only been 3 country songs about dogs, ever). A dubious hat trick. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 04:58, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Another one to discuss: File:Blackhawk_promo_image.png. I have every reason to believe that image is fine, since it depicts the band's lineup during its most successful period, including one member who is now dead. Shenandoah (band) passed GA with a similar non-free image depicting an older lineup that includes a now-dead band member, so precedent would suggest this image is fine too. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 05:16, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
"whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance"; That answers the question rather succinctly. Let's say all The Andrews Sisters were still alive (in reality, two are dead). There would be no justification for using a non-free image to depict them if their notability didn't rely on their visual appearance as supported by secondary sources. In any given case, so long as their notability does not rely on their appearance, they are alive, are not a famed recluse, or incarcerated for life, then there's no justification for a non-free image. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've been thinking how to generalize this better, so here are my initial thoughts. First and foremost, we need to separate our the case of a single person from ensembles, trying to cover both with the same advice just doesn't work (outside of the core NFCC, of course).
- For articles (not sections, but full articles) Single living persons, I would argue that we can't even broach the use of NFC for that person until either a free image has been shown to exist or consensus clearly agrees that a free image is impossible to get due to situations (such as a person being incarcerated for life, or is clearly been stated to have become recluse from society). Using NFC in lieu of the fact that there doesn't yet exist, but possible free content is completely out of line with the Foundation's specific example of free replacements. This includes the case where the person's former public image, only available through NFC, is drastically different from their present-day appearance of which free media can capture. Once you have met the barrier of having a free image or showing that it is impossible, NFC to show the older appearance may be appropriate but only if there is sourced discussion about that appearance. A case that recently came to mind is Huey Lewis, where I noticed someone on twitter commenting about the image we have in the infobox, compared to, say, how he looks on the cover art for Sports (Huey Lewis and the News album). However, as best as I'm aware, there is no sourced commentary about the artist's younger look, and for our NFC policy, using old NFC to show what Huey Lewis actually looked like when he was more in the public eye would be completely inappropriate. Again, I point to Weird Al Yankovic's pre-LASIK look as an example of an appropriately sourced NFC image for a living artist. Bear in mind : all NFCC policies otherwise still applied, in particular here #8 and #1 to an extent - I am not talking an automatic allowance that if you have one free image of an artist you immediately are allowed to use non-free to supplement it. Only that to even talk about using non-free in conjunction with sourced commentary about the look, you need to have passed the demonstration of free imagery to begin with.
- For articles on ensembles that still exist though may have lost member due to death or quitting, or changed members, if the ensemble is still touring/recording, then we assume a free image can be created, and no non-free is allowed as an alternative. Once that free images has been confirmed, then the possible of NFC to show the original group or an earlier makeup may be appropriate, only if there is sourced discussion about the visual appearance of the original group. If the ensemble is no longer touring or recording, or otherwise most have passed away, then it is reasonable to consider a NFC image to show the group. This, however, again is based on the premise that the image of the group is significant to the reader's understanding.
- On that last point, while I disagree with that point, I recognize consensus generally assigns that pictures of a person or group is appropriate for deceased people or no longer active groups. I do wonder if there is a consensus-agreed NFCI that can be added similar to the use of cover art on published worked that an NFC of a deceased person or non-active group is generally acceptable on the main article about that person or group, that there's implicit #8 understanding by having that in the infobox. This might be a totally different point for discussion. --MASEM (t) 15:24, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- So are we just gonna keep talking in circles and going nowhere? Or are we gonna reach a point? We're using a lot of words, but not advancing a single inch. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 19:40, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think we've all scoped out a border here; if secondary sources support notability based on their appearance at a particular time in their career, then NFC can be justified. Else, no. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that's just great. What do we do about the non-free image at Shenandoah (band)? I didn't hear anyone bitching about that when we got it to GA. And how would I prove that no other free images exist to depict, say, the members of Blackhawk (band) since one of them has been dead for 10 years? I would think it'd be obvious that it's, I dunno, 10 years too late to get a picture of them now. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 19:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- GA-passing should not be used as an indication that an image truly meets NFCC guidelines, since only two people (the editor, and the reviewer) have to meet on that. And just because one member of a group died, if they are still touring under that name, a free image of the current group is possible. We do allow NFC when most of members of a group have passed away or the group has been disbanded and never likely to reconvein again (see The Beatles), but not otherwise. --MASEM (t) 20:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Editor forcing usage in violation of WP:NFCC 10c
Yesterday, I removed an image from an article for failing WP:NFCC #10c, as explained in the edit summary used. Today, User:Robert K S restored the image to the article, indicating the rationale is identical, and the image description page had been updated to reflect this. Indeed, he had updated the image description page, but had done so in such a way as to be a group rationale. As we know, WP:NFCC #10c requires a "separate, specific non-free rationale for each use". Group rationales are not appropriate, and such group rationales have been previously discussed here. I removed the group rationale addition on the image description page, indicating I would explain further on the editor's talk page, which I did, and re-removed the image from the article for failing #10c again.
Subsequent to this, the editor responded on his talk page, restored the group rationale and restored the image to the article, in all three edits calling my edits "disruptive"/"disruption".
I've informed the editor in question of this thread.
Other eyes, please. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- The way you've described it, it sounds purely like a formatting/procedural issue with the NFUR, if the issue can be resolved by using separate NFUR templates for each article usage (even if the rationale is identical for each one) rather than just one template for several articles. In which case repeated removals of the image from the article instead of fixing that seems like a waste of everyone's time.
Or do you believe that the image cannot be made compliant with NFCC? I don't know what the consensus is on using the nonfree logo of a parent institution in an article on a subsidiary branch (here, a business college using the logo of the university as a whole; doesn't the business college have its own logo or seal?); I could see an argument at least that such a use would fail NFCC 8. If that's the ultimate issue, then it's still a waste of time to get hung up on the procedural multiple templates/group template issues if using multiple NFURs wouldn't fix that substantive problem. postdlf (talk) 14:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- I removed the image twice, once on normal removals, and once after informing the editor who removed it as to why it was removed. There's no intent on my part to waste anyone's time. I stopped removing the image from the article after explaining the issue to the editor, and brought the issue here when it became apparent the editor was going to keep adding the image back to the article, regardless of WP:NFCC policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Would just adding a rationale to the image page resolve the issue you are seeing? If so, why not just do that and be done with the entire situation? — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please see "Just fix it yourself instead of causing so much disruption" at WP:10CR. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- But that's exactly what's happening here: you are causing this problem for yourself by repeatedly removing the image, in an effort to force the other person to do things your way. The second removal, in particular, seems to just prolong the situation instead of resolving it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- It could also be the case that Hammersoft may have determined that that image wasn't appropriate on that page - and therefore "fixing" the problem by adding the second rationale would not be appropriate for him to do (to an extent, using the parent organization's logo for a subsidiary is not always appropriate). It's not just a typo fix here. --MASEM (t) 15:15, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's what Postdif asked, and Hammersoft has not answered. Hammersoft did say above that he removed the image for failing #10c, not for some other reason, and his edit summaries only mention #10c. If he thinks the image has other problems, he should note those in the edit summary instead of just mentioning #10c. We have to go by the edit summaries used, I suppose. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please see "Just fix it yourself instead of causing so much disruption" at WP:10CR. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- I removed the image twice, once on normal removals, and once after informing the editor who removed it as to why it was removed. There's no intent on my part to waste anyone's time. I stopped removing the image from the article after explaining the issue to the editor, and brought the issue here when it became apparent the editor was going to keep adding the image back to the article, regardless of WP:NFCC policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
I want to point out something regarding the edit summary "This image use does not comply with WP:NFCC #10c and MUST be removed until it does." [6]. What WP:NFC actually says is "Instead, the file should be removed from the articles for which it lacks a non-free-use rationale, or a suitable rationale added." (italics added). Note that the actual policy does not say that the file must be removed, and indeed the actual policy only says "should", which leaves some editorial discretion. No policy mandates removing images from articles when there is a lacking rationale. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
(ec)Carl, I don't think that Hammersoft on every removal has to say "it is inappropriate for me to add a rationale" (and explain why), we all know that it is up to the editor who wants to include the image to do so. We can, and will, do it as a service where we feel we are capable, but that is not obligatory.
That said, the image does have two rationales for the two images after writing the group rationale, there is no need to remove it, and then remove the image again as lacking rationale, that could have been done by discussing. I'd prefer action on all those images which plainly lack a rationale, and on those where the rationale is plainly invalid, and leave rationales which are not strict conform the policy (but valid) to later.
But also, what is the problem with actually copying and pasting the rationale, and changing the name, if that rationale is similarly valid (and then it comes back to the case, whether one of the two is not valid). You can call it overly bureaucratic, but well, there is also absolutely no reason to WP:IAR about this, it makes Wikipedia earlier better (simply complying with the bureaucracy, whether you like it or not) than worse.
If only editors would show a bit of willingness in all directions, this would be so much easier. I know that edit wars are ongoing over cases which plainly fail WP:NFCC, but there is no need to start so over pages which fail on technicalities like this. Write a template and tag images where the rationales are grouped and leave them for a rainy day (/me looks outside, sees rain .. hmm .. ). --Dirk Beetstra T C 15:31, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- It's certainly not inappropriate for anyone to add a rationale; Hammersoft simply declined to do it. But if he added one nobody would claim that was wrong for some reason.
- As for just copying and pasting the group rationale twice, it's what I did on the image page. Surely NFCC patrollers need to be aware of WP:BURO and try to avoid the appearance of pushing bureaucracy for its own sake. I think that's what Postdif was getting at above. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:25, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
I hope to add some clarity about what actually transpired, by supplying the diffs that show the actual editing activity. Hammersoft removed the image of the CSU seal from the CSU business school [7], noting, perhaps, that it had earlier been tagged by a bot as being "not compliant with the non-free content rules" [8]. Indeed, the image did not give an independent fair use rationale for the business school page. I attempted to correct the issue on the image [9] and re-added it to the business school page [10]. Hammersoft, contending that fair use rationale must not merely comply with a policy intended to square Wikipedia usage of fair use images with U.S. copyright law, but must duplicate text in bureaucratic fashion, reversed my changes [11] [12]. I attempted again to add an appropriate rational to the image page that followed policy but was not needlessly duplicative [13]. It appears a third user (Carl) now believes that the appropriate thing to do is to do just what WP:BURO seeks to avoid, by adding duplicative text [14]. Fine when only two rationales are needed, but what about 16? 25? 100? Granted, we have not reached this phase yet, but we would do well to consider the question with some foresight, rather than planting and allowing to take root an interpretation of the policy which would ultimately lead to mindless rationale-bloat. Robert K S (talk) 16:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- BTW, Carl, I think your solution is not good as it stands, since it attributes a viewpoint to User:SportsMasterESPN which that user has not explicitly expressed. I will not revert you, but I recommend you make the appropriate fixes. Robert K S (talk) 16:35, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- If the image needs to be used on 100 pages, we would use 100 different rationales. The problem is that it would be very difficult to justify the reuse of a non-free image on 100 different pages. Logos are a common issue as in this case: we do allow logos on the page of the entity the logo represents, but like this case, people want to put logos on subsidiaries of that entity that do not have their own logos. That's very questionable; yes, it is apart of the larger organization but that might be misrepresent them, as well as interfering with using as little non-free images as possible. --MASEM (t) 16:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- @Robert S K: even if the duplication is useless, if it resolves the discussion and lets people do other things then it seems OK to me. I reworded the rationales, also. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- @Robert: For better or worse, a separate, specific rationale is how we do things, even if they are duplicative of each other. See File:Abclocalradio.png as an example. This is far from isolated; it's standard practice here. I realize you're just becoming aware of that now, but it really is the case. If you want to get it changed, as I noted on your talk page feel free to start a thread here to modify WP:NFCC #10c to permit group/blanket/generic rationales. As is, how we are doing things is where we have come to at this point. As Masem points out, we discourage mass repeat uses of images. We even have Wikipedia:Database reports/Overused non-free files, which helps us identify non-free media that is used across many articles, to ensure that such uses are kept to a minimum.
- @Carl; I am not causing a problem for myself anymore than someone who is removing BLP violations. I have been and continue to encourage compliance with our policies. The problem isn't with me, anymore than someone removing BLP violations is a "problem". As to my reasons for removing it, see my response to Masem below. As to "MUST be removed", there is a policy. Please see Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy #4. I've been using the term "MUST" for thousands of edit summaries with nary a peep of trouble before. I fail to see how it is a problem now.
- @Beetstra; I took the appropriate action, and didn't edit war. The image failed 10c. I removed it. The editor incorrectly restored the image, apparently (I'm guessing) not reading the policy or feeling the policy didn't apply. So, I removed the inappropriate rationale, removed it from the article because it was replaced improperly, and attempted to educate the editor on the issue. When it became clear the editor was going to keep restoring it regardless of policy, and was intractable on the point, I brought it here for other eyes.
- @Masem: I didn't judge whether the image was appropriate for the page where I removed it. I generally don't. I removed it under 10c of the NFCC policy alone.
- @All; If my actions were inappropriate, then tell me how. The other options are just ignore the problem (which still fails WP:NFCC) or edit war over it, which I could because it is a blatant failure of WP:NFCC, and is exempt from WP:3RR (I know how everybody just LOVES that option!). I thought the best option is the one I took; bring it here for discussion. But, apparently I made a mistake as a number of people are criticizing me for my actions. Good Christ there's no doing right. You know what the reality is? No matter WHAT you do vis-a-vis WP:NFCC enforcement, people will find fault with you. Just in this incident alone, I'm "disruptive", causing "mindless rationale-bloat", causing a "waste of time", "causing [a] problem", supposedly trying to force other people to do things my way, and apparently using an improper edit summary. I have been civil, instructive, and to the point. Despite this, I'm treated as I've just noted. Personally, I choose to continue to take the action I did. Those of you who disagree with it, too bad. Find consensus to stop it. I recommend starting an RfC to suspend 10c. Let's see how well that flies. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:52, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody here is talking about eliminating #10c, we're talking about ideal and less-ideal ways to achieve compliance. Edit warring is one of the less-ideal ways. In the end, we have seen time and time again (date delinking, BLP deletions, ...) that that sort of strategy is ineffective, leads to excessive drama, and leads to dispute resolution. Bringing it here for discussion is perfectly reasonable; looking for a middle-ground solution is the next step. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:10, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- If it's so damn reasonable, then why the #$*_(% @$^t23 am I being raked over the coals for it, not the least of which is by you???? Go and look for the middle ground. Try to craft something that works. From my experience over the years of doing this, there's about a 95% chance of such a "middle ground" failing. We've been there, tried that, with people and bots and it DOESN'T work. The solution I am using DOES work. It's not ideal, but it's better than anything else we've managed to come up with in the years since this policy was put in place. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:14, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Re: "For better or worse, a separate, specific rationale is how we do things, even if they are duplicative of each other." --"We will persist an an unreasonable policy that does not actually further the purpose of the policy, simply because, at some point, somebody did it that way" is precisely the attitude that WP:BURO works to avoid. There is no need for duplicate templates or duplicate data. There is no reason to give the pixel dimensions of an image and to explain that it is low resolution multiple times on an image page. That is bureaucratic bloat par excellence. It should be perfectly acceptable, and within both the spirit and the letter of the guideline, to offer a single-line, explanatory rationale for each article in the midst of the full rationale outline, as I did with this edit. Robert K S (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Robert, I'm sorry, but this just isn't the way we do things here per the NFCC policy. If you want to change it, fine. Start a discussion here on this page in a new thread with a suggested rewording of the 10c policy. Turn it into an RfC (I can do that for you if you like, just start the thread). But, barring changes in policy, this is how we do things. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't get why that is how we do it, if that indeed is how we do it. I mean, if we allow non-free content (we shouldn't) on a case by case basis, it should be done based on the needs of the encyclopedia, not based on whether some bureaucratic process has been followed or not. If that isn't what is written policy, then remember that WP:IAR is policy, and has always been. —Kusma (t·c) 21:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) One possibility is to use one {{Non-free image data}} + several {{Non-free image rationale}}s; there's also {{Non-free use multi}}, though it may be slightly more tricky to fill. Jheald (talk) 20:50, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- I understand that separate rationales can seem unnecessarily bureaucratic to someone working purely from the perspective of Wikipedia-as-online-encyclopaedia. However, there are very good reasons why separate rationales are beneficial in the long-term and necessary to the wider goals of the project. Most important is the requirement that Fair-use rationales be machine-readable in order to facilitate re-use of WP content. Additionally, the editing window clarity of separate rationales makes them more easily adapted and edited by users less familiar with wiki-syntax (I especially dislike the multi fur template option as it obfuscates an already overly-technical business). While for boilerplate rationales, this may seem somewhat marginal, you also have to remember that boilerplate "Purpose of Use" explanations are considered barely adequate (often they are not even that) and that a good fair-use rationale will explain in a case specific manner for someone not knowledgeable of the subject why the image is important to the article. CIreland (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Consider that the Foundation uses the word "exemption" when describing when we use non-free media from the norm of "using only free content". Using a media file once with an appropriate rationale is reasonable, but every subsequent time, you beg the question of whether that's truly an exemption from the free mission. It might be - there's room in interpretation that the same image is needed 100 times across WP, each use truly meeting the exemptions of the free mission. But for even to consider this, I would need to believe that each use is unique to justify the large number - otherwise, its simply repetition and not really an exemption. Ergo, that is why we require a separate rationale for each image, because each use should be unique to fall within an exemption from the Licensing resolution. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Current practice seems to be that logos used "for identification" are a large class of non-free content that is automatically allowed if the paperwork is filed correctly. Separate rationales become quite silly in this case.
- The situation would be a lot better in my opinion if every non-free file would need to be discussed in the article. There would be no need to discuss the logo of a university in sub-articles about individual schools of it, and so there should be no logo on the sub-articles. We will probably never get consensus for this, though, as one of the implications of requiring discussion would be to remove 90% of album covers and film posters. —Kusma (t·c) 06:33, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Again, I could care less whether rationales are grouped or not, if all the rationales are indeed valid and all requirements are met - I do agree there with Robert K S. Even if WP:NFCC disallows (or discourages) ... it should be the least of our worries. However, Robert K S. First you change the rationale that is there, and when they are split, you are saying "since it attributes a viewpoint to User:SportsMasterESPN which that user has not explicitly expressed". Hence, also changing it in the first place is doing that.
Whether it is bureaucratic or not, whether it is silly or not, whether it is useless or not, it is better to have separate rationales for each use. If the first rationale for 'company' says 'this is the logo for company', then the second can not say exactly that, it should say something like 'this is the logo for the 'product' devision of company, which shares the same logo as the company.' .. Now also that is bureaucratic, and it is so blatantly obvious that that logo will be fair-use, even without any written out rationales it is totally defendable. But unfortunately, that is not true for by far the majority of the images. Many, many have no fair-use rationale (what Delta and I are automatically detecting as lacking a written out rationale is just the very, very small tip of the iceberg. There is way more out there which actually lacks a written out rationale, but which are false-negative on detection). Secondly, I think that logos are the least of our concerns, there is much non-free material (both with and without written out rationale) which is actually failing fair-use. I suggest we focus on that. Though Hammersoft is certainly, technically right in his actions, these are not worth any further discussion as long as they at least have a rationale written out. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:12, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think we need to define what we mean by "rationale". The guideline calls for separate, specific rationales for each use. My position is that a single sentence, with the word "because" (or similar) in it, in the midst of all the various technical recitations about image size etc. suffices to fulfill the guideline. "The image can be used to identify the corporation because it is the corporation's official logo." Hammersoft's position is that all the various technical recitations also have to be repeated. So when we say "rationale", are we talking about the single explanatory sentence, or are we talking about the whole template? Robert K S (talk) 12:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would say, a rationale is reason for the use of the image, naming for each reason the article it is for. That rationale, or reason, should be repeated for each single use (they are hardly ever, if ever, the same for two different articles, and should hardly ever, if ever, be grouped). The rest of the info is indeed not necessarily repeated. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:45, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- @Robert; No, my position is that a "separate, specific non-free rationale" must exist for each use of an item. You place a rationale of "It is properly displayed to represent the Cleveland State University or any of its subsidiary schools". I.e., that any article about a CSU school within the CSU system can therefore use the logo. That is a far, far cry from a separate and specific rationale. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Machine readable rationales
I think I remember at some point in the past we changed the policy to require that rationales had to have a backlink to the article where the image was used. But I cannot find that requirement in any policy at the moment. WP:NFCC only recommends including a link, and WP:NFUR only says that the name of the article has to be mentioned. Did this requirement go somewhere else? — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Machine readable != wikilink. It has never been a requirement, just a very very good suggestion. ΔT The only constant 21:15, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're probably thinking of Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy #2. I think where this ended up being applied was that license tags had to be machine readable. With the rationales, there are some tools that are looking for the presence of rationales vs. articles where they are used. Those tools just look for the mention of an article as a proxy for whether a rationale for that use exists. It sorta works. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Machine readable goes way further than having a working wikilink, CBM. If someone uploads an image with solely "logo of company" as the text, and then displays it on 'company', then that actually gets read as an image which has a rationale ... this is a huge group of 'false positives', as the article, technically, does not have a written down rationale for the use on 'company' (though in this case it is very likely that it fair-use). What people have never realised is that Delta's scripts detect a lot as having a rationale, way more than what actually has a (written down) rationale, but what is detected as lacking a rationale often did not have an unambiguous rationale (agreed, some are easily repaired ..).
As an example, what I regard 'a valid rationale is written down':
- having a backlink
- having a backlink that goes via redirects to the correct article
- having a backlink to a disambig page which links to the correct page (separately logged as disambig)
- having a backlink that goes via a redirect to a disambig page which links to the correct page (separately logged as disambig)
- having a backlink to a disambig page which links via a redirect to the correct page (separately logged as disambig)
- having the name of the article as plain text mentioned somewhere on the image description page (seperately logged as 'unlinked'; e.g. File:Fugazi_-_Repeater.ogg)
- having the name of a redirect to the article name as plain text mentioned somewhere on the image description page (seperately logged as 'unlinked'; e.g. File:YAns.jpg)
- the backlink is one of the links on the page of the article where the image is displayed (seperately logged as 'broken', e.g. File:Destruction of Buddhas March 21 2001.jpg)
And this includes detection whether the images are actually linked via a redirected image link.
'Machine readable' goes very, very far. Note, that even 'having a backlink' does not automagically mean that there is a rationale written down - very often even that is not true (but at least, it makes sense that the image is on the article, and a rationale may be easy to write). See e.g. File:YAns.jpg (no rationale written down, detected as 'unlinked'), File:Destruction of Buddhas March 21 2001.jpg (detected as 'broken'; there is no rationale for the use on Afghanistan .. I even doubt it exists), File:WACsportsnet.jpg (totally undetected, no rationale at all, likely fair-use).
If Delta was detecting 10s of thousands which do not have a proper rationale, I estimate the real number earlier at 100s of thousands of uses which do not have a proper rationale written down. This is a bigger problem than anyone can fathom. Sure, for most of the cases which are false-negatives a rationale likely exists (the subjects are close enough - YAns.jpg very likely is fair use on Yahoo Answers) - but that certainly is not true for all of them. And then the cases which have a fair-use rationale written down, and where the fair-use rationale is plainly invalid, or which are plainly overuse, all of which is not machine detectable at all. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Names or backlinks through redirects have been accepted, but we can't allow for disamb pages to be in the way. I can't identify any immediate cases but can theorhetize that an image could be used on page CommonName (x) and on CommonName (y) pages but for a completely different reason, and thus if only one rational provided points to the disambig page, we have no way of knowing what the intended usage is for. A machine certainly cannot be expected to make that distinction.
- There's no requirement for a proper rationale - that is, that it needs to use a template or the like - and I know Delta's tools in the page were simply scanning the text for the article (not required to be linked) and redirects to that article that the image was used in, so it was certainly covering the bulk of the cases. Machine readable, effectively. --MASEM (t) 12:48, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Disambigs can be detected, and often lead to a 'correct' rationale. Still that list needs to be checked in the end and all should be repaired. The rationale should point to the correct article. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Not true. Again, a hypothetical: Say there's a book called "CommonName" which itself is not disamb but does point to a disambig page for other unconnected uses of the name "CommonName", and there's a NFC that's used appropriately on that page. Sometime later a movie about that book comes out, and the same NFC is determined to be ok to use on that movie - but no one updates the image to add the rationale. Later its agreed that no long is the book the most common use of the name and agree the disamb page should be the landing page for "CommonName". The book would be moved to "CommonName (book)", the movie to "CommonName (movie)". The NFC image - since there's no redirect (since we're moving the book page to clear out for the disamb page) - would still point to what "CommonName" is, which is now the disambig page. Any bot - unless it has language hueristics to read and understand the rationale for meaning, not just machine-readable, is not going to be able to know that the rationale should point to simply by landing on the disambig page or even following each link. It has one rationale for two images, and both images are within the disambig's link list. A human is needed to resolve this. I know this is a lot of "ifs" for this to happen, but we've seen enough of the individual ifs that assuredly someday if not already this case will result. This is why we can't include disambig's as part of the checks for the article name. --MASEM (t) 13:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Disambigs can be detected, and often lead to a 'correct' rationale. Still that list needs to be checked in the end and all should be repaired. The rationale should point to the correct article. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:53, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly, that is why I log them separately, and they all need to be checked. I am not auto-flagging them as correct, nor auto-flagging them as missing. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:16, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Must images of historical importance be "subjects of commentary" before we can claim fair use?
The new NFCI8
The entirety of the above discussion has been closed, and NFCI8 has been changed to "Images with iconic status or historical importance." Clearly, the old NFCI8 was believed to be unsatisfactory, because it implied that critical commentary was essential for the use of non-free content; clearly, this is not the case. However, I worry that the new NFCI8 implies that any image with "iconic status" or "historical importance" is usable in almost any situation- equally, clearly not the case. Most other NFCI entries have a condition- "For critical commentary", "For identification" and so on. I think something similar, as was being discussed in the bottom section of the above discussion, would be helpful here. J Milburn (talk) 11:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yea, I agree - the closure above was wrong focusing on only the early discussion, because the crux of the matter basically boiled down to the fact that some users saw NFCI has "all inclusive" acceptable uses - any use not listed was unacceptable - and this clearly wasn't the case (that's why I had to reiterate that non-inclusivity of the list in the test above. The addition of NFCI 9 helps to address the concerns for historic images that aren't commented directly but directly support sourced discussion in the articles they are used in. In other words, the argued used by those supporting the removal of the language were satisfied in two ways by other agreed edits. And now, the blurb represents something that cannot work within policy. --MASEM (t) 13:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've reverted as it's entirely at odds with WP:NFCC. A significant portion of the respondents above do not understand WP:NFCC, the licensing doctrine, or at least have not read them—while it is true we craft our own exemptions, considering it doesn't abide by the criteria in the current policy that would have to be rectified first. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 13:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
- Once again it has been removed. This cannot be done, as you cannot just put an historic image with no qualifiers on this list. That breaks NFCC. --MASEM (t) 21:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it does. But, NFCC can be overridden by community consensus, right? --Hammersoft (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- No it can't. And again, I'm going to point out the obvious: NFCI was never meant to be taken as the all inclusive list of when non-free is allowable. The "as subject of commentary" is defining one case where it is clear we allow historic photos (barring all other NFCC requirements). The use of historic photos without being the subject of commentary is not a case excluded by not being listed in NFCI and not being listed in NFCU, but it is just not a case that is easily-allowed; editors have to demonstrate the image clearly meets NFCC#8, and thus should be prepared for a more demanding challenge (but not outright disallowance) for their use. Again, consensus in the RFC was clear that this type of case is allowable, but nearly all misunderstood how the list is present since we had still allowed for those cases. And to Thparkth - we did add wording to make it clear that the list is non-exhaustive since that point. That's all that was needed to resolve the issue. --MASEM (t) 21:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you agree that the image being the subject of commentary is not a necessary condition, then it should be fairly easy to come up with a wording that reflects this. I would personally be very happy with something like "As the subject of commentary, or in the context of sourced commentary of the events depicted." But it should really also have a reminder about the use of press agency photos etc, and at that point it starts to get quite long. Why not just take NFCI8 out completely since it's just an example? Thparkth (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- And by the same logic, then take out all the NFCI since they are just examples - which of course is not right. The NFCI are cases where the use of NFC is readily accepted barring other NFCC aspects. No one will question (to the general extent) the use of a cover image on an article on an album or book. No one will question the use of a logo in the infobox on the page about the company that uses that logo. And importantly, no one will question an historic image that has sourced discussion of that image. The case that the above RFC asked for, where the historical image is used without itself being directly w/o commentary but supporting the article, is a case that is generally but not nearly always accepted, and thus is inappropriate to include on this list, but that doesn't mean that case is immediately a non-allowable case. The language before the list talks about non-inclusive, and thus we aren't ruling cases out unless they are specifically listed in NFCU. --MASEM (t) 21:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you agree that the image being the subject of commentary is not a necessary condition, then it should be fairly easy to come up with a wording that reflects this. I would personally be very happy with something like "As the subject of commentary, or in the context of sourced commentary of the events depicted." But it should really also have a reminder about the use of press agency photos etc, and at that point it starts to get quite long. Why not just take NFCI8 out completely since it's just an example? Thparkth (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- No it can't. And again, I'm going to point out the obvious: NFCI was never meant to be taken as the all inclusive list of when non-free is allowable. The "as subject of commentary" is defining one case where it is clear we allow historic photos (barring all other NFCC requirements). The use of historic photos without being the subject of commentary is not a case excluded by not being listed in NFCI and not being listed in NFCU, but it is just not a case that is easily-allowed; editors have to demonstrate the image clearly meets NFCC#8, and thus should be prepared for a more demanding challenge (but not outright disallowance) for their use. Again, consensus in the RFC was clear that this type of case is allowable, but nearly all misunderstood how the list is present since we had still allowed for those cases. And to Thparkth - we did add wording to make it clear that the list is non-exhaustive since that point. That's all that was needed to resolve the issue. --MASEM (t) 21:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- Of course it does. But, NFCC can be overridden by community consensus, right? --Hammersoft (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- (To Masem) Then try to find a wording that people can live with. Don't just defy the RFC outcome. Thparkth (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- May I ask you something? I thought we almost agreed that the wording:
- "Images depicting historically significant events. If the photo itself is the subject of sourced discussion OR The photo describes an event that is discussed by sources in the article, AND incorporates elements and settings that cannot be adequately conveyed by properly sourced text, and are neither envisioned by free media nor commonly seen or known by the average Wikipedia reader."
- takes into account most of previously raised concerns. What prevents us from adding it to the NFCI as #10? Then we can safely restore the words "as a subject of commentary" in the NFCI#8, and the issue is closed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:30, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- Surely the first part is redundant to NFCI#9? J Milburn (talk) 22:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, however, current NFCI#9 makes many other examples redundant. Let me also point out that "to be a subject of commentary" and "to be a subject of sourced discussion" is not completely the same. BTW, #9 should be probably changed accordingly.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- Surely the first part is redundant to NFCI#9? J Milburn (talk) 22:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- May I ask you something? I thought we almost agreed that the wording: